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So what exactly IS the (dissociative) hole?

MrFister

Bluelighter
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
202
I've been wondering about the 'holing' phenomenon for quite a while now. By hole I refer to the hole commonly experienced by Ketamine (K) and Methoxetamine (MXE) users, but not to exclude any other possible methods of holing. I've heard anecdotes of holing from 3-MeO-PCP, 4-MeO-PCP, PCP, and Nitrous. I personally only have experience holing through use of MXE so I can only offer my thoughts on that substance. Prior to dissociative drug use I had heard of reports of a K-Hole experience, but I had scant understanding of what a K-Hole elicited. To my understanding K-Holing is an overwhelming and unstoppable exaltation of the self into a wondrous world fueled by imagination - although personal philosophy may alter whether the new world is perceived as real or not. I was expecting the exact same phenomenon out of MXE, and lord was I wrong.

Over time I spent nights with friends and alone experimenting with MXE. During use I found that sometimes I would find myself sinking deep into dissociation, and I would find myself stuck in a warm comfy sea of blackness. I drew the assumption the warm blanket WAS the hole, and I was blown away many weeks later during use following a tolerance break. On 50 mg (a high dose for me) I was taken on a tour through a deep and dark fortress of an ancient alien race, I saw a volcano erupt as I became the lava, and I lived several lives in the span of an hour. It was a deeply spiritual experience that prompted me to take a break from use. Later use would find occasional success with holing, and I had one amazing experience which topped my first hole. But high points of the drug aside, I found on many occasions I would take a 'hole' dose and find myself laying in bed frustratingly attempting to dissociate in a futile numb stupor. Conversely, sometimes I would take a far lower dose than I consume (60-70 is a hole dose) like 35 mg, and I would be blown away by dream theaters conducting private shows about my life. Crystal clear quality, for my eyes only. It was then that I started contemplating the phenomenology of a hole.

Renunciation of bodily sensations, temporal perceptions, and conscious thought is conducive to the emergence of a 'hole' state. Conscious disregard of real stimulus then results in the manifestation of filler data: audio distortions/hallucinations, visual patterns and colours, streamlined/free-flow thought, and strange bodily sensations. Investigation into meditation, hypnogogia, and sensory deprivation yield much insight into the transition into a hole. My experience with these three natural phenomenon lead me to believe the overall architecture is identical - although the net result can be very, very different. Hypnogogia occurs in the state before sleep, usually during stage 1 (or maybe stage 2) Non-Rapid Eye Movement (NREM) sleep. Hallucinations experienced during hypnogogia are very common and range from vague shapes to fully lucid movies. Memory is usually rapidly forgotten unless the individual makes a very strong conscious effort to retain the memory of the experience. In fact, for those unfamiliar with hypnopompia it may come as a surprise that techniques exist to induce a state of a conscious mind as the body descends into slumber. This state is often referred to as "Mind awake, body asleep" (MABA). Hallucinations not unlike those experienced in hypnogogic states are also vividly entwined with the meditative experience. Meditation is also well known to either have a concomitant, or causal relationship with faster brain waves such as alpha and theta waves.

I hope it is not unreasonable to deduce that a shared phenomenon would also shares similar traits with states that follow similar patterns. MXE, and by extension all dissociatives, apply filters that warps perception by stripping away layers of recognition. As visual input wanes, an intermediate state of faint imagery often arises. These are not true hypnopompic hallucinations however, they are simply the result of sensory deprivation. Having problems with blood pressure there have been times where I see faint spots of colour due to ocular pressure while on MXE. On these occasions I have never been able to hole, or witness vivid imagery. Sensory deprivation is very obviously implicated in dissociation, but from my experience pure sensory deprivation rarely allows holing, only permitting mild to semi-vivid colours and shapes.

Several users and myself here on bluelight have noted melatonin raises the likelihood of experiencing vivid hallucinations and/or experiencing very lucid holes under MXE. Melatonin is notable for reducing sleep latency if used correctly. As hypnogogic scenes occur during the first sleep phases, the brain is usually entering alpha/theta brain wave territory. I believe that successful holes rely on emergence into the beginning phases of sleep. Background stimulation from MXE is sufficient to keep the mind awake JUST ENOUGH to remain above stage 3 and 4 sleep - as well as retain a somewhat conscious will. For the sake of argument I will postulate that as the brain approaches a dreaming state it removes a natural 'reality filter' in order to preserve calmness and remain asleep for the night. As MXE removes filters, perhaps it removes the reality filter as well?

My theory is as follows: the hole is the product of conflicting levels of consciousness mediated by automatic processes facilitating sleep and the conscious mind's dysfunctional communication in the presence of MXE. Beginning stages of sleep create hypnopompic hallucinations that are potentiated by sensory deprivation as a result of the visual filter enhancement. This state is where self-reflection and 'brain movies' about very real events and memories take place. As the brain shifts into the lower states of sleep, it creates filters to shield the conscious mind from distractions so as to preserve sleep. MXE creates a non-real reality filter that the brain perceives as a natural reality filter, and skips placing a total filter over the brain - sleep then proceeds into a deeper and more 'trance-like' state. The user now rests in a state of deep trance, under no restraint of reality's limits, thus the 'hole' is born. The hole continues until one of two conditions are met: the drug wears off, or the body proceeds down to stage 4 and back to stage 2 in its natural cycle.

So for discussion, any thoughts? Inputs? I can't recall a thread or a question like this being asked on this site, forgive me if this has already been brought up.
 
the hole is the product of conflicting levels of consciousness

Sure.

mediated by automatic processes facilitating sleep

Maybe not.

conscious mind's dysfunctional communication in the presence of MXE.

Definitely.

I think you don't give enough credit to the sense-depriving effects of "hole" doses of dissociatives. I think it would be closer to say that MXE as well as ketamine induce pseudo-dream states by supressing the normal cortical "rate loop" and sensory input. The processes involved in dreamlike hallucination and sleep are definitely very close but I am unsure if it would be correct to call them the same thing. And I'm really unsure if ketamine "coma" or MXE "coma" (read: blackout similar to deep-wave sleep) is actually anywhere near the same thing as actual nondrugged sleep, physiologically.

I also think that while the "sensory filter" analogy is a good one for explaining percieved effects it is a bad one for determining what the brain is doing. I personally subscribe to Marvin Minksy's theory that the brain is a mish-mash of individually acting groups of cells ("actors") that together make up a homogenous conciousness. Selectively enabling or disabling certain groups of "actors" hence can characterise many states of sleep. It seems altogether simpler to me to say, rather than the rbain "creates filters to shield the mind from distraction" but rather it disables those parts of the percpetual network that deal with the day-to-day tedium of sensory input (also explaining why people are woken from sleep by pain, noise etc).

It's well known that states of simple nonintoxicated sensory depreivation can induce dream-like experiences, so why can't the explanation be as simple as chemically supressing most sensory input ("decreasing the bandwidth" if you would) as well as slowing down the rate at which it is sampled and processed ("chopping/flanging/time-warping").

At extreme doses the effect is that of total sensory supression which, when combined with altered perception of time, can lead to the immersive dream-like experiences and sense of "infinity" in the "hole".

I think it is just a lot easier for most people to reach a dose where sensory supression is achieved but memory (and possibly "ego") is still active with dissociative drugs than it is with sleep. Many people find it hard to recall dreams, etc, because storage into long-term emory seems to be inactive in natural sleep states. Don't get me wrong, retaining memory and awareness in sleep is possible, but it requires mind-hacking (see: lucid dreaming).

As a side note I have read anecdotes of dissociatives (particularly DXM) facilitating almost hedonistic total sensory recall of memories. This would be in line with dissociatives supressing external input and hence favouring internal "imagery".

Really what someone ought to do is do some EEG studies. Ketamine plays havoc with the brain comapred to other anesthetics.
Ketamine does not follow the basic anesthesia-related EEG pattern. Anesthesia with ketamine is characterized by frontally dominant rhythmic theta activity with increased amplitude. Increased doses produce intermittent polymorphic delta activity of very large amplitude interspersed with low-amplitude beta activity. Electrocortical silence cannot be produced with ketamine. EEG activity may be very disorganized and variable at all doses. Recovery of EEG activity even after a single bolus dose of ketamine is relatively slow compared to barbiturates. There is no information available about the relationship between emergence reactions following ketamine and the EEG. Ketamine has also been associated with increased epileptiform activity.
 
I lol'd at the title. %)

When a lady and a man love each other very much, they might decide to have a baby...

Sorry OP, I do think your question is a good one. What I think of as the hole is when you become dissociated to the point that you can no longer completely rationalise that fact that you are simply experiencing the effects of a drug, and have entered what feels like a completely different mode of existence. I think how the exact nature of that mode of existence is probably different for everyone - I've never had the kinds of hallucinations and fantasies that you describe, but I've definitely felt that 'normality' is impossibly far away and that it is impossible to even imagine what it's like. That's as far as I get when thinking about this, because I do think that the most fundamental things about the nature of the dissociative hole are beyond the capacity language to describe.

I do think though that the dissociative experience in general is to do with the mind becoming unable to maintain the (absolutely necessary) illusion that we can have unmediated access to things-in-themselves rather than simply being aware of the virtual models of those things that is built in our mind in response to sensory input.
 
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Many people disagree on the definition or at least use the term in varying ways. If the same word is used for different things in a discussion, you are bound to get confusion and miscommunication.

The best thing I ever heard someone say I can agree with is: there is a K-hole or X-hole when connection to the outside world is completely severed and the entire subsequence experience or at least that part of it, is internal.
A metaphor would be an island you are on, or better yet - you are - and a hole is when there is nothing else in sight as far as the eye can see. As far as the island is concerned there is no outside world anymore during this period or at least since it cannot be sensed the point of whether it would exist or not is irrelevant.
IME typically the theme inside a holing experience is not that much about questions about any outside world. This seems to be somewhat different with dissociatives from psychedelics that can produce a dissociative episode. My belief is that this is caused by the inherent cognitive or conceptual disruption from dissociative drugs that make it more dream-like or mystical while psychedelics don't bomb memory or cognition that much and some part or concept may be retained and conceptualized in different ways (often archetypical / Jungian for me) on the way to the mystical and mythical.

Another sidenote is that IMO psycholysis seems to happen in a more linear fashion with psychedelics but in a more parallel fashion (more meta) with dissociatives.
This makes the integration of the experience different, I think. Although when mystical territory is arrived at - both are basically ineffible (by definition even).

Anyway... that's my perspective.

Here, have a link to the ketamine K-hole subthread:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/300726-Ketamine-Subthread-The-K-Hole
 
I agree with the comparisons to hypnagogic activity. I’d further speculate that dissociatives chemically allow the user to maintain similar patterns of activation/inhibition in the areas of the brain responsible for producing sober hynagogic states, as perhaps do opiates during “nodding dreams” and perhaps also does sensory deprivation using non-chemical means (as sekio notes.) The similarities between REM atonia (natural cessation of motor neuron stimulation during sleep/hypnagogia), sensory deprivation, NMDA antagonism, and the effects associated with the opiate nod are too many to ignore when considering what a “hole” is.

If the “hole” is a distinct phenomenon, there must also be some threshold crossed to enter it (the edge of the hole if you will). Here, theories on sleep paralysis (another state between sleep and wakefulness) may be revealing.

From wiki:
Another major theory is that the neural bodies that regulate sleep are out of balance in such a way that allows for the different sleep states to overlap [7]. In this case the cholinergic sleep on neural populations are hyper activated and the serotonergic sleep off neural populations are under activated [7]. As a result the cells capable of sending the signals that would allow for complete arousal from the sleep state, the serotonergic neural populations, have difficulty in overcoming the signals sent by the cells that keep the brain in the sleep state

If indeed the dissociative hole and hypnagogic hallucinations share an underlying pattern of brain activity, then the threshold or “edge” of the hole may be the point at which the dissociative chemically allows for this balance of activation between the cholinergic “sleep on” neuropopulations and the serotonergic “sleep off” populations, though in a different way because the dissociative user is not asleep (I'd think this could be tested, too). Still, the point remains the hole may represent a chemically maintained change in the balance of brain activity that allows the user entering a trance state (which is not that dissimilar to attempting to go to sleep) to suspend consciousness between what are essentially sleep and wake states.

The other subjective differences between hypnagogia and a dissociative hole presumably have to do with the other ways NMDA antagonism, PCP receptor activation, etc., are different from patterns of brain activity occurring during the sober sleep paralysis state. EDIT:These other factors may also account for the way dissociative holes differ between different dissociatives while sharing some strong similarities.
 
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In my experience, the k-hole is quite different from the m-hole.

Ketamine at that dosage causes a complete disconnection of the physical senses to the mind. This is sort of a cliché way to describe it, but it's always felt like my mind/spirit rises up and out of my body. Towards the beginning, I'm still aware that I have a physical presence, but I don't see out of that presence. Rather, I'm just aware that it exists and that it has some connection to me. When higher levels of dissociation present themselves, I am no longer aware or don't concern myself with physically existing; my mind feels free to float around, and I feel some degree of freedom to think about things in away that one usually can't when you're conscious.

MXE at that dosage is different for me. I don't get a floating feeling, or even a prominent feeling of disconnection. Almost all of the times that I've m-holed, the hole itself sneaks up on me entirely. At some point in the experience (I'm never really sure when), I forget about the fact that I even took the drug. I don't forget who or what I am, and I don't always disregard my physical form. This is much more like a trance state. My mind is rarely free to explore. I'm thrust into a strange, alien state of mind that reminds me only of my most vivid dreams, or delirious states during a high fever (though much more pleasant).

They're both considered 'holes', just as you could probably reach a comparable point with DXM, PCP, or the PCP analogs. However, I don't think that there's a good definition as to what a 'dissociative hole' actually is, because the way that each of these compounds acts on the brain is markedly different, even though they're in the same class. That's why ketamine has enjoyed so much success as an anesthetic. I've never gone above 200mg in less than an hour of MXE, but even with an extremely high dose, I feel like it would be terrifying to be operated on.
 
Hmm
..i've never done k. so i can't compare but i do indeed get that feeling of floating and movement.

I wrote this in the big and dandy mxe thread:
I consider myself in a hole when i get the physical sensation that my body moves...my legs are getting stretched...my whole body gets twisted/twirled etc. . ..and when i close my eyes, after a while i see very vivid 3d worlds (partially in hd, sometimes it' s really stunning how real it looks) which are for me mostly abstract and dark. Only one time i flew over awesome landscapes in nature. And i feel the movement like it would really happen. When i'm in a deep hole i can controll the direction.


And about the comparison with sleep paralysis....there are some similarities...when i enter sleep paralysies before sleep i get a similar buzz like i would get from nitrous. and my body vibrates like on mxe or high doses of dxm.
But on the other hand it's quite different. ^^
 
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I actually had a natural experience of sleep-related dissociation when I was a kid. I think I was around six or seven years old and one night when I was asleep this terrifying feeling came over me - I wish I could describe it but I never get very far when I try. The words 'block' (as in a block of wood) and 'heavy' seem related to it, and also the concept of a very tiny thing, like a mote of dust, being immensely heavy in the palm of my hand. It was an intolerable feeling and it caused to me to walk into my parents room and start shouting incoherently at them. I don't know if I was asleep or awake at that point - likely somewhere in between.

I would wonder about what happened that night regularly and by concentrating hard, especially while staring at a screen, I could sometimes bring the feeling back, or a memory of it. I distinctly remember getting it strongly while looking at tv static while I waited for someone to put a cassette in a vhs machine, and another time as I was falling asleep on a friend's sofa the day after a heavy night.

The point is, the first time I took Ketamine a few years ago I thought "this is it! This is that feeling I had when I was little!" I started going on about it to my friends and got some funny looks. It's not always there when I take dissociatives, but it's often there to some extent, and always makes an appearance on heavy doses. I don't like it at all, but it doesn't scare me, and I can get rid of it by moving any part of my body - it's only there when I stay completely still.

Sometimes I think having had that experience without drugs should help to work out what dissociation is, but since I can't describe the feeling it's really no help at all.
 
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I can see why you say that Spin, but I really don't think it is. I have sleep paralysis regularly - (ie. I become conscious while still paralyzed and have to struggle to wake up fully before I can move) but it's never accompanied by that feeling. Also, when I originally had that feeling it persisted even when I got out of bed and was walking around. I know that wasn't a dream because my parents told me I was in their room shouting at them.
 
"I don't like it at all, but it doesn't scare me, and I can get rid of it by moving any part of my body - it's only there when I stay completely still"

Perhaps liking the feeling would help you proccess it, or at least put it in a broader context. It sounds alot like what baba free-john use to call "the thumbs"..a childhood experience that he later related as a precurser of his yoga trained enlightenment,

I have a similar childhood ex. that was very high fever (delerium) related, only this was a damnation (hell bardo) ex....I would try to recall it for weeks after it happened, and some times it would be (for lack of better words) right on the tip of my tongue...whenthis would happen, i would allways be pushed into a vivid altered state of conscienceness...all pre drug exploration time framed.

"when i was young i had a fever..my hands felt like two toy balloons"..p.f.
 
I've been very close to a hole. I teetered on the edge of the hole.

I was really heavily dissociated while a good friend of mine was in the same room holing.

It seemed as if there was an energy flow surrounding me.

I wanted to let go and let it take me but I was nauseous and that kind of seemed like a decision to jump off a cliff at the time, or maybe jump out of a plane.

it almost felt like I was literally going to let go and start free falling through the universe or something.

It was only a little scary because I was nauseous from drinking alcohol that day.

this was from 80mg MXE.

I'm gonna take a hole dose soon just because I need to know what it's like to jump off that cliff :)
 
I have heard from from a LEO it is possible to get "stuck in a hole".
Is this true?
I believe I "holed" on MXE several times before stopping.

I think similar things can happen on DMT and DOC too as well as the rest.

I think a DMT breakthrough is somewhat similar to a hole. Not in the way it feels but what happens in your body to create a more intense/next level/other-worldy experience.
IMO a hole is a form of "breaking through".
 
I've always thought it was pretty simple. I consider the hole to be when I have no awareness of my physical body and earthly surroundings. It's basically like a dram, only the experience itself is different from a dream. But thats what the k trip is like. Unlike mushrooms or LSD when you're going to see the environment you're in transformed, on ketaine you lie down and go inside yourself as you do when you go to sleep at night. When you sleep you have experiences that have little/noting to do with the physical environment youre in, same with ketamine.

Its possible to teeter on the edge of the hole, and have some awareness of your body, just as its possible to teeter on the edge of a dream. You wake up from the hole and realize it was a k-hole, just like you wake up a dream and realize it was a k-hole. While in the hole, you often forget youre on ketamine and can think that reality was just always like that.
 
"I don't like it at all, but it doesn't scare me, and I can get rid of it by moving any part of my body - it's only there when I stay completely still"

Perhaps liking the feeling would help you proccess it, or at least put it in a broader context. It sounds alot like what baba free-john use to call "the thumbs"..a childhood experience that he later related as a precurser of his yoga trained enlightenment,

I have a similar childhood ex. that was very high fever (delerium) related, only this was a damnation (hell bardo) ex....I would try to recall it for weeks after it happened, and some times it would be (for lack of better words) right on the tip of my tongue...whenthis would happen, i would allways be pushed into a vivid altered state of conscienceness...all pre drug exploration time framed.

"when i was young i had a fever..my hands felt like two toy balloons"..p.f.

Thanks for your reply - definitely food for thought. I have tried to like the feeling - or at least allow it to persist for as long as I can and therefore become at peace with it. But there is something about it which seems beyond liking or disliking - something inorganic almost. It's beyond pleasure and pain but not in any kind of 'enlightening' way, but in a cold, dead kind of way. Now that I come to think of it, it feels as if I have become an inanimate object. That's impossible of course - how could you be subjectively aware of being an inanimate object? I think that unresolvable contradiction accounts for fact the feeling is ultimately intolerable, while not actually being displeasurable.

Sorry, I'll shut up now, this isn't really on topic.

EDIT: Something that is on topic: I've heard differing opinions on whether or not to really, truly get to the K hole is through injection. I've read trip reports by people for whom reality has completely disappeared and they have travelled through a fully realised fantasy - but those reports are by people who have injected the material. I've insufflated 250mg of pure Ketamine in a single dose and was definitely way, way out there but I could still see that I was in my room - I knew psysically where I was even if the meaning of everything seemed radically changed.
 
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I actually had a natural experience of sleep-related dissociation when I was a kid. I think I was around six or seven years old and one night when I was asleep this terrifying feeling came over me - I wish I could describe it but I never get very far when I try. The words 'block' (as in a block of wood) and 'heavy' seem related to it, and also the concept of a very tiny thing, like a mote of dust, being immensely heavy in the palm of my hand. It was an intolerable feeling and it caused to me to walk into my parents room and start shouting incoherently at them. I don't know if I was asleep or awake at that point - likely somewhere in between.

I would wonder about what happened that night regularly and by concentrating hard, especially while staring at a screen, I could sometimes bring the feeling back, or a memory of it. I distinctly remember getting it strongly while looking at tv static while I waited for someone to put a cassette in a vhs machine, and another time as I was falling asleep on a friend's sofa the day after a heavy night.

The point is, the first time I took Ketamine a few years ago I thought "this is it! This is that feeling I had when I was little!" I started going on about it to my friends and got some funny looks. It's not always there when I take dissociatives, but it's often there to some extent, and always makes an appearance on heavy doses. I don't like it at all, but it doesn't scare me, and I can get rid of it by moving any part of my body - it's only there when I stay completely still.

Sometimes I think having had that experience without drugs should help to work out what dissociation is, but since I can't describe the feeling it's really no help at all.

Sorry for ressurecting this thread from the dead, but I have one of most amazing coincidendes happening.

I was explaining the very same concept of imagining something really heavy but small and that fact of imagining it would bring dissociative feelings and anxiety/fear to my friend JesusGreen of psychedelics forum some time ago. But back then I was doubting anyone else on earth would have a similar feeling to this. Besides I didn't know what phrase I should search for in the internet? How is that feeling called for example? How would I know that?

And now I was just randomly searching for info about melatonin + weed or melatonin + MXE mix and found this thread. Randomly started reading your reply and boom, the same feeling I was so dubious to ever hear about from another person.

In my case, I started being able to imagine the whole dissociative/anxiogenic scene after I took DXM for the first time when I was 16. I'm 19 now. The scene is, basically, imagining a small ball, usually shiny/metal-looking ball. Then I'd add the concept of the ball being very, very heavy, perhaps a plannet made of some uber-heavy element) or something, and I'd compare it to myself and see that the ball is indeed very small compared to me. I guess the dissociation made me big in terms of space compared to something that is incredibly huge and even more incredibly heavy, and that'd produce anxietic feelings in me.

I can bring up that feeling if I focus any time of the day. I just need to start imagining the ball, then add the "heavy" element to it, then the dissociation,some anxiety,weird brain "helicopter"/"my body is spinning in space" feelings appear.

I wonder where does that come from. And how is it called? Do you guys think I could use this skill of dissociating myself on demand in some trip perhaps? Or anything?

writing this post while high.

Any guys who could explain or even name this phenomena?
 
I loled at my post from last year because I've had some bangin holes since then.

IME its when your mind gets so dissociated from the input from your sensory organs that it creates its own sequences of sensory input (very similar to dreaming).

The craziest one I've had was the 2nd or 3rd time I ever did Ketamine I insufflated ~250mg in one go and smoked some hash right after.

I was under the impression the world was ending because it was Dec. 20th 2012 and asked my friend to stop playing call of duty purely out of fear that I would spend an eternity respawning into a war zone and getting killed.

then my nervous system felt like a wire made of magma being electrocuted with vibrations every few seconds. I did a complete 360 degree rotation in my mind and all the sudden I was in a vast black space. I remember seeing myself walk down the sidewalk from above then my point of view slowly rotated around to find that there was a mirror image of myself walking on the soles of my other self's feet. I was struck with the conviction that the multiverse definitely exists and there are totally other realities where I'm doing only a slightly different thing than in this reality.

its hard to remember all of it but I remember all of the sudden looking up at the ceiling of a large building while moving. then my point of perception raised into the air and I looked down to find that I was just looking up out of a shopping bag being carried by a shopper at my local mall. I then watched this person walk amongst a lot of people all christmas shopping at the mall, and I was hardly paying attention to the person carrying me (or that inanimate object I was) when I saw them give me to someone else walking the other direction very non chalantly. after a while that person passed me off to another person.

one time I combined MXE with kratom and weed and had the most vivid mind movies I've ever had. I was playing the game SSX tricky in first person flying down a mountain doing aerials on a snowboard. Then, I was blowing glass (I was in a glassblowing class at the time) and as it went through all the transformations of being molten glass then ending up a cup, at some point I became the glass.
 
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