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Communist Propaganda

knock

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 30, 2009
Messages
15,462
Rather than polluting every other thread with my dirty, pinko, hippy, faggot, godless meanderings I thought I'd start a dedicated thread here.

To start with I have three great videos to pervert your minds with.

The first is a talk on Crises of Capitalism by Geography lecturer cum Marxist uber lord David Harvey, put to cartoon. Naturally it has direct relevance to the current financial crises.

Crises of Capitalism

The second and third are a talk in two parts by hesitating anarcho-weirdo genius David Graeber on how We Already Do Communism. Commupoints if you keep up. No shame in rewinds.

Human Economy I

Human Economy II
 
Are you happy calling what you want "communism" with all that entails knock? Or is this some pre-totalitarian state theoretical version of communism...and wouldn't anarchism be a better word for that?
 
i'm not happy that the word "communism" has the connotations it does thanks to the state capitalist regimes in the USSR, China, Cuba etc. using that name and damaging its reputation. Communism is the post-state, post-class organisation of society under the democratic (non-representational democracy, i.e. not parliament but direct) control of the masses. The prefixes are different ways of getting there and yes I call my way of getting there anarchism. But the propaganda I've linked to is not specifically anarchist.
 
Surely the sheer sensationalism in titling a thread 'Communist Propaganda' was a big part of the appeal in using the 'C'-word, knockando?

I'll be sorely disappointed in you if it wasn't. ;)
 
All systems which centralise power are corruptible & the more successful they are the more remote they become. In order to relieve our malaise we need decentralisation - complete decentralisation.
Communism Capitalism Socialism Fascism makes no difference in the final analysis they are systems to centralise (our) power with which the "leader" projects force.
Anarchism - such an impossible dream but such a beautiful dream
 
no b9 you"re wrong, sorry, communism is about decentralising power. as i said the concept has been corrupted by state capitalist regimes.

if you studied communist thinkers you'd know this.
 
i'm not happy that the word "communism" has the connotations it does thanks to the state capitalist regimes in the USSR, China, Cuba etc. using that name and damaging its reputation. Communism is the post-state, post-class organisation of society under the democratic (non-representational democracy, i.e. not parliament but direct) control of the masses. The prefixes are different ways of getting there and yes I call my way of getting there anarchism. But the propaganda I've linked to is not specifically anarchist.

Can you give me an example of when and where it has worked and lived up to its reputation?
 
Anywhere nobody was thought any more or less important than anyone else. In practice, that usually means when numbers are small enough for everyone to know everyone else. Communism is just good community.

City communes, with their 'barter' economies, could be said to have 'worked' during the Spanish Civil War. And, before the Europeans came, Africa was a continent of village communes. To see what goes wrong in the larger model check out the history of the various Paris communes.
 
To see what goes wrong in the larger model, check out the larger model.

It's probably one of the noblest ideas ever when applied to communities where everybody is equal and the joiner fixes the bakers front door in return for 3 loaves but as a state machine (which is what it is when it exists now), it drips in abject human misery and failure.
 
it's a shame good people's minds are so closed. will post more later.
 
great thread Knockando!

Lets start the revolution:-

Revolutionary Biscuits
fuuuuck me! loved watching that again. cheers tons for posting that <3 .. every word was familiar and I remembered so much of it despite not watching the show for ages n ages. awesome scene. picked up on the Young Ones from it's very first showing when I was a young un and I've loved it forever

Revolutionary biscuits of Italy, rise up out of your box, you have nothing to lose but your waaaaafers! yum yum yum!

Alexei Sayle makes my 'most shit-hot people in the world' list, along with Will Self, who I've previously rambled about here. y'know those 'choose any 10 people to attend your last supper' type questions you get in surveys? or 'what 5 people would you choose to be on a desert island with', ones? * (lots of people put Jesus, lol!)... I never fill em in but Alexei would definitely make mine. maaaan he's hawt to me. I absolutely covet that type of abstract, comedic intellect, since I don't have an ounce of it myself. it's a very rare talent, especially when it's used in conjunction with political thoughts & ideology. it's a truly beautiful mind that possesses both qualities & it's therefore sexy as hell imo. To me, he's Mr Anarchy (when it comes to the mind at least)

2 years ago, while on one of my annual london sightseeing trawls, I walked past him while avoiding some roadworks blocking the path near Holborn Tube station, and he looked me straight in the eyes as we passed each other ... made my weekend <3-<3

* there's possibly a few decent BL threads to be had outta these type of concept questions and similar variants. Have thought about posting them a number of times in the past, but 'wine over matter' normally wins and I never end up getting round to it =D ... I'll leave it to Brimz!
 
Erm when you say 'no, that wasn't communism/socialism' aren't you just falling into the no true scotsman fallacy? Every time I ever see anyone say to someone advocating socialism in one of it's guises, just look at all previous attempts they are failures. The standard reply of the Lefty being talked to is that that wasn't 'real' communism or socialism. By which I'm guessing they mean that wasn't their very very specific, and completely untested I might add, brand of socialism. It is a reliable catch all excuse to hide behind when confronted with the failure of over 100 attempts by societies to implement socialism.

And as if communism wasn't unworkable enough already, you seem to think that it would go well with anarchism? central planning leads to the obvious problems we have seen time and again throughout history. However, anarchism towards that end would be impossible. It would be difficult enough to build a house without a project manager, even if you had all the appropriately qualified builders. A few questions that come to mind are; what makes people pull their own weight? What would create the transformation in the mindset of the people from our current one, to an extremely collectivist one, if not ferocious state propaganda? What would dictate the direction this society goes in, given that socialists can barely agree on anything? How is this going to happen in a globalised economy? It would require the entire world to rise up in unison, and for there to be extremely charismatic leaders showing the way - who must also be willing to give up the power they would gain from such revolutions. How will you silence people advocating different systems? How will you cope with food crises?

When you pick and choose poiltical theroies I presume your starting point must be what is on paper the best political system we could have. You then work backwards from there plotting a course in your head as to how that could come about. But the reality is that between here and where you want society to be there are a billion ifs and buts, and let's not forget human nature buggering everything up along the way. You cannot seriously say with a straight face that our lives would be better under this system, or that it could even be achieved. Many better, and cleverer, people than us have tried and failed miserably. Their intentions when they begun were undoubtedly very close to yours, then reality set in and they realised their communist utopia wasn't going to appear out of thin air, and that it needed some serious leader ship and cracked eggs so to speak.

I have a political theory - MSBism. Under my system no one will work more than an hour a day. We will all drive hover cars, and everyone will have access to unlimited amounts of free drugs. Now all we have to do is hash out the details, but I definitely think it is achievable. Who's in? Or do I need to get a lengthy list of academics on side? Joking aside, if I could pick and choose what happened to society I would probably be with you. But I don't think it is realistic on a million different levels. You can call me close minded or unable to think outside of the box, but looking at a theory and coming to the conclusion that it's impossible doesn't make that so. There are thousands of theories and permutations of those theories, and my way of assessing those theories is firstly by how realistic they are and what the outcomes would be, as well as by looking at real world examples of those theories in practice.
 
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A word is a label. So we must be clear on what the label refers to. Otherwise when someone uses the word, we do not know what the fuck they are on about.

There is a historical tradition of communist thought which extends decades into the past. Within that tradition we can find a meaning for communism.

It is not, RZA, that the joiner fixes the bakers front door in return for three loaves. That is barter.

Nor is it a state machine. It is the absence of state machinery. Marx proposed a revolution in which the proletariat took control of the state machine. Then, he theorized, they would form a dictatorship of the proletariat. The job of the dictatorship would be to manage the migration from a society dominated by capital and state to a society dominated by the will of the people, a society where people were in control. This final post-state, post-capital society is communism.

Marx was wrong. When a state is seized by people, they are in turn seized by the state. Power corrupts, and absolute power blah de blah.

So what you see in the historical development of the USSR and China and Cuba is not communism. It is dictatorship and it goes nowhere.

Prior to the Russian Revolution, Kropotkin, one of the great Anarchist thinkers, warned that the Bolsheviks would end up destroying the revolution. He predicted it would end in dictatorship. He was right.

So we cannot judge communism by looking at history. We can learn lessons from history. But to limit our thinking in the way you would like, RZA and MSB, is akin to limiting our ideas of Christmas based on the run up to Christmas 1982. It may have been fraught, it may have been a run-up to Christmas never to be repeated. But to damn Christmas itself based on this one run-up to Christmas is clearly irrational and defeatist.

Finally, RZA and MSB have you bothered to watch the videos I posted?
 
Erm when you say 'no, that wasn't communism/socialism' aren't you just falling into the no true scotsman fallacy? Every time I ever see anyone say to someone advocating socialism in one of it's guises, just look at all previous attempts they are failures. The standard reply of the Lefty being talked to is that that wasn't 'real' communism or socialism.

It's the standard reply because it's true!


By which I'm guessing they mean that wasn't their very very specific, and completely untested I might add, brand of socialism. It is a reliable catch all excuse to hide behind when confronted with the failure of over 100 attempts by societies to implement socialism.

100 attempts, really? In any case, I don't care, humanity has been around for hundreds of thousands of years, 100 attempts at anything is not the end of the game.

And as if communism wasn't unworkable enough already, you seem to think that it would go well with anarchism? central planning leads to the obvious problems we have seen time and again throughout history.

And here you show your misunderstanding, communism is not central planning. I won't waste my time arguing with someone who is not familiar with the terms of debate and shows no interest in familiarising themselves with them. Not tonight anyway, I've had too much too drink ;)
 
To see what goes wrong in the larger model, check out the larger model.

It's probably one of the noblest ideas ever when applied to communities where everybody is equal and the joiner fixes the bakers front door in return for 3 loaves but as a state machine (which is what it is when it exists now), it drips in abject human misery and failure.


For the origins of that problem, see the development of states, from Greek City to big as continents.

Some interesting views on this thread; nice to see some young minds work.

Listened to 'Mary Barnes' on the radio earlier in the company of a present day nutter. Think it did her more good than several stays in one of our wonderfully modern mental institutions, where the anti-psychotcs are most refined. Were Laing and his gang communists, would you say? World could surely use them now.

Slavery takes many forms and the revolution will come from the mind. In real terms, the only madness is violence and the state is more violent than any man. Be your own head doctor and, for outside sense, look to the shadows and laughter, not the convoluted writings of 19th century exiles. Give me a good commie over a financial sector highflyer any day of Christmas.
 
great thread Knockando!


fuuuuck me! loved watching that again. cheers tons for posting that <3 .. every word was familiar and I remembered so much of it despite not watching the show for ages n ages. awesome scene. picked up on the Young Ones from it's very first showing when I was a young un and I've loved it forever

Revolutionary biscuits of Italy, rise up out of your box, you have nothing to lose but your waaaaafers! yum yum yum!

I taught my daughter this song when she was 4 so she could perform it with me to my brother because we both loved the Young Ones as kids, he remembered it as well and the tears were rolling down his face, I sing it ion public occasionally including the preamble about

"you've got your Bourbon, you Garibaldi and you Peek Frean Trotski assortment"

Some people just think I'm special need others remember, I'm long past worrying what people think of me in that way !!

....sorry off topic....as you were
 
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