"Mixing 'Uppers' and 'Downers' is Bad" - The Common Misconception

[SpunkySkunk347]

When someone tells you "mixing uppers with downers is bad for you', they are more than likely spewing out straight bullshit. But it makes sense doesn't it? Taking an upper with a downer might like, pull your body in two different directions dude! But your body doesn't actually work that way.

Taking a 'downer' with an 'upper' is usually better for your body than taking an upper by itself (true with opiates, benzos, and even alcohol). The bodily effects of the downer will counter-act the negative bodily effects of the upper: hypertension, vascular constriction, heart rate, etc.

When someone goes to the emergency room overdosing on amphetamine, odds are the emergency room doctor is going to administer a benzodiazepine (oh no! a downer and an upper being mixed together!) to treat the overdose and bring the overdoser's vitals to normal. It is almost protocol.

Another thing contributing to the misconception is the belief that all recreational drugs fall into the category of either downers or uppers.. "Marijuana is a downer" no its not.

But even thinking of "mixing downers with uppers is okay" as a general rule of thumb is incorrect -- our bodies are more complex than that, and drugs are more complex than that. Both amphetamine and most antihistamines (diphenhydramine for example) cause vascular constriction, and mixing them together is going to be uncomfortable. Taking tramadol with amphetamine could cause serotonin syndrome or a grand mal seizure, and will be very uncomfortable anyways even if neither occur.

I think the moral for the naive majority is, learn that things are more complex than short little cliches like "mixing uppers and downers is bad for you" or "speedballing has a 50% chance of killing you"...
I can't remember all the times I met someone in real life who has taken those drug cliches like biblical scripture, because they heard it on MTV behind the music or Dateline NBC; how are you even supposed to deal with telling these people that they're wrong? "I've shot speedballs over 200 times and they have a 50% chance of killing you, do the math, its a miracle I'm alive!" Like its some badge they wear with honor, it serves as the cornerstone for their ego, and if you tell them they're a dumbass they might end up freaking out and start breaking shit.

If a person overdoses on heroin because they only shoot it with cocaine, and they kept shooting more of it because they wanted more of the cocaine's short-lasting effects, then they died from a heroin overdose, not from mixing cocaine with heroin. And you'd be having to take some pretty large shots too to not fall asleep in-between them. Cocaine only lasts for like, what, 2 minutes when injected? The difference between a heroin dose that just makes you fall asleep and a heroin dose that kills you is quite large. If you're able to take one shot, the cocaine is going to have worn off by the time you've even got another shot ready - and the heroin will be in full effect by that time, so you're going to know if you're too tired to take more heroin or not, if you take more you're a dumbass. If the heroin is this mythical "ultra super 110% pure" that is fabled in magazines and 80s band documentaries, then it would probably just make you fall asleep.

How do people overdose then? I'm guessing 90% of heroin overdoses were with individual's who were also either drinking alcohol or on benzodiazepines (or a few decades ago, ludes and barbiturates) but the alcohol/benzos never got mentioned. And the other 10% were people who didn't understand the intricacies of tolerance, and after a week of not being able to get any heroin they finally got some and tried taking their 'normal' 1 gram shot in the ol' elbow pit, and ended up dying.

 

[nAON]

I've never heard anyone say mixing an upper and downer is bad. The reason it's dangerous is because they mask each others effects, so when one wears off, the other one becomes much stronger, which can result in an OD.

 

[SpunkySkunk347]

But the only time that could actually occur would be with cocaine (or some other less-common extremely short-acting stimulant) and an opiate, since most opiates have like a 5-10x longer duration. But the difference between a lethal dose of an opiate and a recreational dose is so large, that it would be hard not to notice one had taken too much, and it would be difficult to take too much and stay awake, even given cocaine counter-acting sedative effects.. I've heard of a lot of junkies falling asleep before they even finish pushing down the plunger if they accidentally took too much -- I'm saying it seems highly unlikely for it to be lethal unless alcohol, benzodiazepines, or some other CNS depressant were in the equation.

Just as a hypothetical example, Opiate N is ingested. More than 100mg of N will cause the user to pass out, and it would take more than 1 gram of N to be fatal. Odds are that the individual will pass out before reaching a lethal dose from repeated administration or from a one-time administration with cocaine. If a user took 1 gram of N with cocaine, the dose would have killed them anyways... It wouldn't require cocaine to mask the effects. Cocaine doesn't last long enough (especially when injected) for it to mask the effects for more than like 10 minutes. It takes most people 10 minutes to get a shot ready (3-5 minutes at the very least) and shoot it anyways, and who would start getting another shot ready immediately after the first?

 

[nAON]

I'd say that the getting high:dying ratio would probably be a lot less than 1:10. And that's also assuming that it causes death by respiratory arrest, when a lot of the fatal 'ODs' are in fact caused by aspiration of vomit after passing out.

If a person overdoses on heroin because they only shoot it with cocaine, and they kept shooting more of it because they wanted more of the cocaine's short-lasting effects, then they died from a heroin overdose, not from mixing cocaine with heroin.

Yes, exactly.

 

[SpunkySkunk347]

Vomiting isn't exactly something the body likes to do while sleeping... Unless maybe vomiting has become such a common occurrence for a junkie, that to them it's no different than taking a piss - in which case they were on a road to death anyways

 

[nAON]

Vomiting is very common on opiates due to excessive histamine release.

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

I approve of this thread.

 

[Doug2113]

You forgot about people ODing from shooting up when they're dope-sick, because their tolerance dropped drastically in the 3 days they were off it...

 

[Renz Envy]

Depends on the upper and the downer.

If one mixes alcohol with certain stimulants it can cause a chemical reaction to occur in the body and a new stimulant is formed.

Also, mixing stimulants with depressants is a known cause of panic disorder.

I have never had panic attacks until after a night of drinking and doing cocaine. The vyvanse I took the next day caused me to go into panic; I cannot take a stimulant without a downer present or else I will have a panic attack.

Depressants such as GHB actually reduce the amount of harm done by many stimulants like methamphetamine, and are a good choice to help combat insomnia, or (in an emergency situation) overdose. However, a GHB overdose is nearly impossible to recover from with stimulants.

 

[Oxide]

I agree with Renz Envy here, it really depends on the substance and the individual. It also depends on the "ratio" (so to speak) of upper to downer, whether or not you're taking them at the same time, the individuals tolerance to each substance...all kinds of factors along those lines.

I don't disagree that there are plenty of misconceptions on this subject, but I have to say to the OP that I think there is very little value in suggesting that taking a downer with an upper is going to be somehow 'better for your body than taking an upper by itself.'

 

[Jakeperson]

I thought benzos and stims were okay but opiates and stims were more risky?

 

[InvisibleEye]

A lot of people I know spread this misconception around me. It's gotten to the point where I can't smoke a joint while coming off stims without someone 'warning' me of 'how terrible it is for your body'. I agree with Renz Envy too.

 

[effie]

^ nothing inherently risky as has been said - it's just the risk of OD when a short-lived stim masks how much opioid you've taken...

Oxide makes a good point though - taking a downer and an upper may not be risky itself, but it is dodgy to assume it is better than taking one on it's own. In fact taking something like a beta-blocker (not a strict downer I know) with a stimulant can actually be dangerous..

 

[Redlite_GrnRight]

Caffeine and alcohol, a pretty common drug combo, i think fits the category pretty well. It seems like most people don't know how dangerous it is. I usually warn someone when I see them mixing these because most of the time i see people blacked out or puking is when they have. People are also usually more prone to getting rowdy and out of control when they don't realize they're that drunk and still have lots of energy. In my personal experience, the only times I have ever had a bad hanger or puked from alcohol, was when I had been drinking soda or energy drinks too.

 

[THC2LSD]

Mixing some upper with some downer isn't necessarily bad, but there are some thing you have to look out for. Some opioids like darvocet and methadone or some of the heroin cuts like quinine can prolong the QT interval. This could be dangerous to mix with stimulants. Also any opiate/opioid lower the seizure threshold and has a vagolytic effect(the vagus nerve slows the heart, blocking it could raise your heart rate).

This study ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1702702/ ) shows that low doses of cocaine antagonized the toxicity of heroin, while high doses of cocaine potentated heroin toxicity. And this study ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/241303 ) shows that dextroamphetamine increased the analgesic and toxic effects of morphine and various opioids.

Mixing benzos or barbiturates with stimulants might actually be safer, since they're used for simulant overdoses. What is dangerous is mixing upper with uppers, and especially downers with downers.

 

[SpunkySkunk347]

I thought benzos and stims were okay but opiates and stims were more risky?

The truth is, the damage done to your body by stimulants (basically just muscle exhaustion, damage from over-heating, dehydration, depletion of neural resources, and possibly neuronal damage) can be almost ENTIRELY reversed by taking either a benzo OR an opiate either while your stimulant is still in effect or once you start coming down..
An opiate will make your body settle the fuck down, which is all your body really needs to begin recovery (as opposed to not having a downer for the comedown, and having to wait until the stimulant has completely left your system days later in order for recovery to truly begin).

It's just something about opiates. They dilate blood vessels (which is good because most stimulants leave your blood vessels tight as a knot); they relax your muscles (again, most stimulants will leave your muscles in complete tension even AFTER they've worn off); they get you to SLEEP (which is one of thee most important things for recovery); and they reverse a ton of other bodily-effects of stimulants (the perpetual cycle of dehydration comes to mind, which can last for days after a stimulant has worn off).
Opiates can also prevent a psychosis by reducing anxiety, since anxiety is really what fuels a psychosis. There have been studies that show that opiates are the most effective form of treatment there is for Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, but they will never be prescribed for OCD since they're a 'narcotic' - but anyways, they'll do wonders stopping the obsessive circular thought patterns that stimulants cause, they'll also stop compulsions too (get you to stop pacing around the room chewing a pen for 3 hours and lay/sit down).

Benzos are always going to be the 'best' for stimulant comedowns, since they'll actually perform such feats as reversing stimulant overdoses -- but opiates are a much more symptomatic remedy for treating a comedown; and they'll also help you physically as well as mentally, just not as much as benzos will.

EDIT: Btw I don't wish to imply that opiates will reduce toxicity in the event of a stimulant overdose; if I was overdosing on d-amph, I'd take my chance with guzzling alcohol before taking an opiate (if I had an opiate, I'd just save it for the day after the overdose when I would be in complete agony). I remember hearing a while back that most deaths from stimulant overdoses are from skeletal muscle collapse - and the ever-feared 'stroke from stimulant OD' is very rare, I'm guessing only from acute overdoses (not unintentional overdoses from accidentally taking too much). So mind over matter (just telling yourself to relax) can really save your ass - given that stim OD deaths are most likely going to be from skeletal muscle collapse

 

[hightimes223]

I find your points in this thread to be valid. If I didn't have a benzo or opiate for coming down off uppers idk where I'd be

 

[DroneLore]

I'd say that the getting high:dying ratio would probably be a lot less than 1:10. And that's also assuming that it causes death by respiratory arrest, when a lot of the fatal 'ODs' are in fact caused by aspiration of vomit after passing out.



Yes, exactly.

I think you got the ratio backwards, or I simply do not understand what you are trying to say.

I've always heard that speedballs were dangerous because they could cause heart problems. If the dope is slowing your cardiovascular system down and the coke is speeding it up, can't that cause palpitations or a heart attack or some shit?

 

[laCster]

i do it all the time. i can't take addy without benzos

 

[Oxide]

It really depends on the drugs in question, no matter which way you cut it.

It's not fair to say all uppers are unsafe to mix with all downers, just like it is unfair to say that it is a misconception that mixing uppers and downers is bad. Everyone is going to have different opinions on this. It's important to remember blanket statements get no one anywhere.