TheLoveBandit
Indefinite break from BL - contact other admin
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2000
- Messages
- 39,029
In reviewing this forum, with the help of the LD mods and staff across the site, we have decided to close the LD forum. In a large part, there is the argument that the forum isn't justified, or at least not operating in a way that blends well with the site and it's goals.
The basis appears to be that there are issues with 1) a member giving enough information to get useful advice will put them at legal risk simply by doing so; 2) the advice given is too dependent on a myriad of aspects (jurisdiction, procedure, history, etc); and I'll throw this one in there to see how it floats - where does it align with our Harm Reduction mandate?
Anyone can easily see on the first issue where people are exposing themselves legally in ways they may not even perceive simply by raising some of their case questions on a website. Forget the lack of legal authority anyone has for answering, these members are jeopardizing themselves by presenting this information - and we're creating a problem for them by having a forum that invites such exposure. This is something of a catch-22 that doesn't apply to the other forums (such as OD or TDS) as much. Confessions there are of a medical nature - will I die, how can get off this, how can I use this safely, what are the after effects and how can I cope with those? They fit into our 'protect yourself' policy in member statements, and are policed by mods in a way to prevent the self-incrimination of "I have or will have drug X and will do it this weekend" which could cause legal or family problems. Other than LD, the forums address non-sensitive discussion (HL, Social areas, etc) or health related areas where the opinions and experiences of others can more aptly be applied and used universally. Legal questions are not so universal, which brings us to the second point.
To properly and safely advise someone of their legal recourse, or what may be happening to them, a mod (or wise and trusted member) must know a lot of other information related to the case. Going past the self-damaging revelation of this data which I addressed in the first point, let's focus on the mechanics of how such a discussion can be useful. The member would need to provide detailed information of what the charges are, where did they occur, what were the circumstances, what is the history of the accused, which court is likely to hear the case and what is it's history with the subject matter, etc. All of these questions take a lot of time to get into - as you'll notice, people are extremely shy (and rightfully so) of giving this level of detail in their initial post, but it is necessary to give any answer beyond "talk to a lawyer". Moreover, ALL of these questions are better asked by, and answered to, the lawyer for the accused. Court appointed or not, the LOCAL legal representation is much more capable of providing pertinent information than some person on an anonymous global website (no disrespect to the LD mods). The LOCAL counsel can maintain the client-attorney privilege, whereas the content on a website is not so private. Most of us will presume the local public defender doesn't give a shit and won't put the effort into defending a member of ours like we would for one of our own, but to be perfectly blunt - they are still in a better position to provide useful counsel.
Let us come to the third point, the one about how LD fits to the site's goals.
Bluelight FAQ
The focus is on harm reduction - this does not extend to legal support, by definition. There is the comments that we try to keep an open forum for ALL related discussions, for sharing of experiences that may help round out the person's understanding of a life using drugs...and that is often extended to why LD was created. However, LD is not a core part of HR, and if it is endangering our members, we need to address that.
The key point we see in this is that we DO NOT protect our members in this area, it is on them to share enough to get help BUT NOT enough to endanger themselves. A somewhat impossible proposition. Moreover, we clearly state we wish to create "safer" drug users, not "better" drug users; and we know how many questions we get on smuggling, dealing, law enforcement, etc. This hinges on the definition of "safer" - does it mean health? Or does it extend to all aspects, to include safer smuggling, dealing, law enforcement issues, etc? We have concluded that extending it that far contradicts our BLUA and our prime reason for being here as it encourages and enables more dangerous behaviour, not safer.
With the argument that LD doesn't fit our scope, the question then becomes "why did we have it at all?" Because we thought it pertained to our members, and we tried to support that content. Hindsight, amongst those closest to it, is finding that our efforts to address this material is insufficient for their needs, and may be in fact dangerous for them.
The remarks that it is enjoyable to read, and 'feels' like it helps is nice, but you can read police blotters for such entertainment. I'd ask, what questions have been raised in there in the past 1, 3, or 6 months that haven't been asked and answered to some degree already ... and that older thread remains available for reading if the n00b had bothered....or do they really need to ask their question separately because it is different jurisdiction, different amount of drugs found, they have a different legal history, or .... well, you see what I've been saying.
While we're not sitting here thinking this is a liability to the site, as much as it is a disservice to our members who actually need relevant legal advice. For legal questions about landlords, unpaid debts, etc - those would still have homes in other forums, and get the same level of 'experiences shared, perhaps more accurately (in terms of local laws) if they are amongst people who frequent the regional social forums - rather than the few who visit the LD forum, or the LD mods who would require deep details to even give a useful response.
Over the years, the LD forum has evolved in efforts to improve the quality of discussion by limiting new posts and replies to requiring moderator approval before they become publicly viewed. This censoring and review of responses was an attempt to keep idiot responses (and idiot questions) from cluttering the place, and possibly creating confusion or dangerous advice from circulating. The mods didn't balk at the additional work of reading the replies this way and filtering the discussion - but few other forums (if any) have gone to this length to keep our members safe from poor advice. Even this step has not improved the forum to the level needed to support our members safely, or justify the forum's presence. The point here is the forum mods, have over time, re-evaluated their position and their content on the site and done their best to evolve the forum to one that best serves our members. At this point, it is their experienced opinion, and the agreement of the site staff, that the forum should not be kept as an active discussion area; that the answers people need can be reduced to a FAQ, checklist, and series of links, or redirected to other regional forums.
This forum closing for the following reasons:
1 - Serious questions need a local legal authority to help navigate the situation
2 - Members need to not be invited to openly share legal issues that may damage their case
3 - Members with less serious legal issues can still get anecdotal advice in other forums.
Over time, many means have been tried for dealing with this content, let's try another since we still don't have the ideal solution. Give it some time as a closed forum, with a FAQ type list - see what it does to the other forums, and if there is a stronger need to try and revive the LD forum in some other manner.
++++++++++++++++++++++
As we close this forum up, we're seeking your input on how to best provide for the questions that will continue to arise. Here are some starting points to help build what would be here for future members, please help us shape it into something more useful and functional for all:
Legal FAQs and Forum Guidelines - PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING
Common questions: What is going to happen to me? What will my sentence be?
Your Legal Rights (UK only)
It appears the UK thread died 2 yrs ago for reasons worth pointing out in any announcement here. I can't find anything for the AUS forums, and I found nothing in the NASASDD region either. If there are materials there, please link them, so we can have a more cohesive across-site solution. Thank you, and a tremendous appreciation for the legal mods and their efforts over the years.
The basis appears to be that there are issues with 1) a member giving enough information to get useful advice will put them at legal risk simply by doing so; 2) the advice given is too dependent on a myriad of aspects (jurisdiction, procedure, history, etc); and I'll throw this one in there to see how it floats - where does it align with our Harm Reduction mandate?
Anyone can easily see on the first issue where people are exposing themselves legally in ways they may not even perceive simply by raising some of their case questions on a website. Forget the lack of legal authority anyone has for answering, these members are jeopardizing themselves by presenting this information - and we're creating a problem for them by having a forum that invites such exposure. This is something of a catch-22 that doesn't apply to the other forums (such as OD or TDS) as much. Confessions there are of a medical nature - will I die, how can get off this, how can I use this safely, what are the after effects and how can I cope with those? They fit into our 'protect yourself' policy in member statements, and are policed by mods in a way to prevent the self-incrimination of "I have or will have drug X and will do it this weekend" which could cause legal or family problems. Other than LD, the forums address non-sensitive discussion (HL, Social areas, etc) or health related areas where the opinions and experiences of others can more aptly be applied and used universally. Legal questions are not so universal, which brings us to the second point.
To properly and safely advise someone of their legal recourse, or what may be happening to them, a mod (or wise and trusted member) must know a lot of other information related to the case. Going past the self-damaging revelation of this data which I addressed in the first point, let's focus on the mechanics of how such a discussion can be useful. The member would need to provide detailed information of what the charges are, where did they occur, what were the circumstances, what is the history of the accused, which court is likely to hear the case and what is it's history with the subject matter, etc. All of these questions take a lot of time to get into - as you'll notice, people are extremely shy (and rightfully so) of giving this level of detail in their initial post, but it is necessary to give any answer beyond "talk to a lawyer". Moreover, ALL of these questions are better asked by, and answered to, the lawyer for the accused. Court appointed or not, the LOCAL legal representation is much more capable of providing pertinent information than some person on an anonymous global website (no disrespect to the LD mods). The LOCAL counsel can maintain the client-attorney privilege, whereas the content on a website is not so private. Most of us will presume the local public defender doesn't give a shit and won't put the effort into defending a member of ours like we would for one of our own, but to be perfectly blunt - they are still in a better position to provide useful counsel.
Let us come to the third point, the one about how LD fits to the site's goals.
Bluelight FAQ
The focus is on harm reduction - this does not extend to legal support, by definition. There is the comments that we try to keep an open forum for ALL related discussions, for sharing of experiences that may help round out the person's understanding of a life using drugs...and that is often extended to why LD was created. However, LD is not a core part of HR, and if it is endangering our members, we need to address that.
The key point we see in this is that we DO NOT protect our members in this area, it is on them to share enough to get help BUT NOT enough to endanger themselves. A somewhat impossible proposition. Moreover, we clearly state we wish to create "safer" drug users, not "better" drug users; and we know how many questions we get on smuggling, dealing, law enforcement, etc. This hinges on the definition of "safer" - does it mean health? Or does it extend to all aspects, to include safer smuggling, dealing, law enforcement issues, etc? We have concluded that extending it that far contradicts our BLUA and our prime reason for being here as it encourages and enables more dangerous behaviour, not safer.
With the argument that LD doesn't fit our scope, the question then becomes "why did we have it at all?" Because we thought it pertained to our members, and we tried to support that content. Hindsight, amongst those closest to it, is finding that our efforts to address this material is insufficient for their needs, and may be in fact dangerous for them.
The remarks that it is enjoyable to read, and 'feels' like it helps is nice, but you can read police blotters for such entertainment. I'd ask, what questions have been raised in there in the past 1, 3, or 6 months that haven't been asked and answered to some degree already ... and that older thread remains available for reading if the n00b had bothered....or do they really need to ask their question separately because it is different jurisdiction, different amount of drugs found, they have a different legal history, or .... well, you see what I've been saying.
While we're not sitting here thinking this is a liability to the site, as much as it is a disservice to our members who actually need relevant legal advice. For legal questions about landlords, unpaid debts, etc - those would still have homes in other forums, and get the same level of 'experiences shared, perhaps more accurately (in terms of local laws) if they are amongst people who frequent the regional social forums - rather than the few who visit the LD forum, or the LD mods who would require deep details to even give a useful response.
Over the years, the LD forum has evolved in efforts to improve the quality of discussion by limiting new posts and replies to requiring moderator approval before they become publicly viewed. This censoring and review of responses was an attempt to keep idiot responses (and idiot questions) from cluttering the place, and possibly creating confusion or dangerous advice from circulating. The mods didn't balk at the additional work of reading the replies this way and filtering the discussion - but few other forums (if any) have gone to this length to keep our members safe from poor advice. Even this step has not improved the forum to the level needed to support our members safely, or justify the forum's presence. The point here is the forum mods, have over time, re-evaluated their position and their content on the site and done their best to evolve the forum to one that best serves our members. At this point, it is their experienced opinion, and the agreement of the site staff, that the forum should not be kept as an active discussion area; that the answers people need can be reduced to a FAQ, checklist, and series of links, or redirected to other regional forums.
This forum closing for the following reasons:
1 - Serious questions need a local legal authority to help navigate the situation
2 - Members need to not be invited to openly share legal issues that may damage their case
3 - Members with less serious legal issues can still get anecdotal advice in other forums.
Over time, many means have been tried for dealing with this content, let's try another since we still don't have the ideal solution. Give it some time as a closed forum, with a FAQ type list - see what it does to the other forums, and if there is a stronger need to try and revive the LD forum in some other manner.
++++++++++++++++++++++
As we close this forum up, we're seeking your input on how to best provide for the questions that will continue to arise. Here are some starting points to help build what would be here for future members, please help us shape it into something more useful and functional for all:
Legal FAQs and Forum Guidelines - PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING
Common questions: What is going to happen to me? What will my sentence be?
Your Legal Rights (UK only)
It appears the UK thread died 2 yrs ago for reasons worth pointing out in any announcement here. I can't find anything for the AUS forums, and I found nothing in the NASASDD region either. If there are materials there, please link them, so we can have a more cohesive across-site solution. Thank you, and a tremendous appreciation for the legal mods and their efforts over the years.
Hope all is well your way; please drop me a PM when you have a moment!