• 🇳🇿 🇲🇲 🇯🇵 🇨🇳 🇦🇺 🇦🇶 🇮🇳
    Australian & Asian
    Drug Discussion


    Welcome Guest!
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

My nanna can't tell an amphetamine from a methamphetamine!

Wicked Posts Biscuit and fairnymph!
Biscuit you are correct in saying the d (+) form of pseudo is probably what you find in OTC preparations, unless its synthetic in which case it could well be the dl form (i.e. racemic).
If meth is made from naturally occurring pseudo or ephedrine i.e. it was originally extracted from Ma Huang, ephedra etc., ALL the reduction product will be the d isomer.
My old Pharm bible by Goodman and Gillman’s [1980] lists preparations containing only the l form of ephedrine. Things could be different toady, but I doubt it.
If you look at molecules of pseudo and ephedrine, ( naturally occurring l-eph and d-pseudo ) you will notice the only difference is where the H and the OH are positioned on the 1st carbon of the alkyl chain. These isomers are known as diastereomers – not to be confused with enantiomers (l + d ) These will not produce different products (in this case anyway). This means that any process which does something to the OH on natural ephedrine will do the same to OH on natural pseudo.
FROM RHODIUM
d-Ephedrine has not been found naturally. The synthetic base has mp 40-40.5°C; the hydrochloride is in the form of white leaflets, mp 216-217°C.
dl-Ephedrine (racemic ephedrine), is the synthetic, inactive ephedrine of commerce. The free base has mp 76-78°C; hydrochloride, mp 187-188°C.
l-pseudo-Ephedrine has not been found in nature. The base has mp 118-118.7°C. The hydrochloride has mp 182-182.5°C. The l-pseudo-ephedrine-d-tartrate has mp 178°C; l-pseudo-ephedrine-l-tartrate, mp 178.5°C (17, 68, 69, 70).
dl-pseudo-Ephedrine (racemic pseudo-ephedrine) melts at 118°C. The hydrochloride has a mp of 164°C.
Not all chemicals exist as enantiomers. It depends upon whether a chiral carbon exists. (4 different groups attached to 1 carbon). And there are many other types of isomers. Ephedrine has 2 chiral centers and Amphetamine has 1. So for ephedrine there exist 4 possible optical isomers. Looking at amphetamine, one may say there are two – a 2nd with the nitrogen - but as the amine does not form a tetrahedral shape, it does not affect the optical conformation of the molecule.
Stories abound regarding whacky procedures for manufacturing meth. Check this out for myth clarification. Hope’s it still OK to post appropriate pages from this site.
”An investigation of the extraction of methamphetamine from chicken feed, and other myths”
http://rhodium.ws/chemistry/chickenfeed.html
 
Most speed in Australia is meth without fail; and many of us have been continually saying this with the evidence to back it up.

MDMA exists as a 50-50 racemic mixture generally because it is produced from MD-P2P and methylamine. This reaction all things being equal, always gives a 50/50 mixture.

I am conscious of this thread becoming too complicated and i dont think we should alienate people trying to learn.
It may be helpful to examine the actual structures. Now for people with no chemistry background dont worry about the overall structures and what everything means; what i want u to do is play a game of spot the difference; compare the structures and see why they are different.

Where u see a LINE jutting out with nothing on the end this represents a CH3 group (a METHYL group)
Sorry i couldnt find images which were consistent the whole way through.

Amphetamine
amphetamine_2d.gif


Methamphetamine
methamphetamine_2d.jpg


Comparing the above two, the only difference is that CH3 group next to the nitrogen - this is a METHYL group; u add a methyl group to amphetamine and u get methylamphetamine.

MDMA
mdma_2d.gif

(remember the lines with nothing on them are CH3 groups)
MDMA = 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine.

So as u can see MDMA is identical to meth except for that group on the left with the two O's (oxygens). It may come as no surprise then that this is called a METHLYENEDIOXY group. U attach one of these at the 3 and 4 positions of methamphetamine's structure and u have MDMA.

Most people are aware about the ease that methamphetamine is made from ephedrine or pseudoephedrine; but most people probably dont understand why. Knowing the structure of these chemicals it is easy to see:

Ephedrine (Pseudoephedrine)
ephedrine_2d.gif


Sorry they are not aligned in the same way but if u look carefully, the ONLY difference between the two is ephedrine/pseudoephedrine has this OH (a hydroxyl) group stuck on. (this diagram doesn't actually represent ephedrine properly and the picture could also be pseudoephedrine, which when either of them are drawn in this most simplified way, they look identical.)

So all it takes is the removal of the OH group to make methamphetamine. One reaction is all that is required to do this and when people are "cooking" meth this is what they are doing - a simple conversion from one chemical to another in the one "pot".

Now compare phenyl-2-propanone (phenylacetone or P2P) to meth. P2P is meth's other main precursor, but when u look at it, it doesnt look like meth much at all. At least no where near as much as Ephedrine or Pseudoephedrine.

Phenyl-2-Propanone - P2P (Phenylacetone)
222px-Fenyloaceton.svg.png


Additionally P2P is impossible to get, so this must be made from other chemicals. Making meth this way is therefore harder, more time consuming and requires a greater range of reagents. Methylamphetamine made from P2P will also be a racemate - i.e: approximately half D to L type - as in MDMA.

MDMA is the same; it is made from a similar chemical to P2P but with that methylenedioxy group attached = making its precursor MD-P2P (aka Piperonylacetone).

Anyway, i hoped that may have helped clarify a few things (it better have - caused considerable grief, whats this the 4th edit :) (Actually the 6th in 2015).

At the least u can appreciate how structures are related and the reason why either of the ephedrines are an "easy" path to meth often undertaken by aspiring criminals who know nothing about chemistry. There is no MDMA equivalent of pseudoephedrine and hence people manufacturing this cannot take a simple one step route. It follows the majority of people manufacturing chemicals like MDMA are far more skilled in chemistry.

[ 17 May 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit
[ 17 May 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
[ 17 May 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
[ 17 May 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit
 
Last edited:
I've learnt a great deal from this thread...
I agree with roof_boy - definitely FAQ material!
A huge well done& thank you to Biscuit, fairnymph and phase_dancer.
:)
 
I hope this isn’t a stupid question.
How does Dexamphetamine fit into the picture?
Dexamphetamine tablets contain the dextro isomer of the compound d,l-amphetamine sulfate, a sympathomimetic amine of the amphetamine group.
From the above quote is it correct to say that Dexamphetamine is really pure d-isomer Amphetamine?
I was always under the impression, along with many others that I know, that Dexamphetamine is a weaker cousin to Amphetamine, much as Pseudoephedrine is to Ephedrine.
But if the above statements hold true would it be correct to assume that Dexamphetamine is in fact the purest Amphetamine we are likely to experience, based on the premise that most illegal Speed sold as Amphetamine is almost certainly Methamphetamine?
 
Dexamphetamine is really pure d-isomer Amphetamine?
Yes, this is correct.
I was always under the impression, along with many others that I know, that Dexamphetamine is a weaker cousin to Amphetamine, much as Pseudoephedrine is to Ephedrine.
This is also correct, but be careful about your wording. Dextroamphetamine is the stronger isomer of amphetamine, with the weaker isomer being levoamphetamine -- abd they are more like brothers than cousins. And yes, the pseudo/ephed vs dex/levoamph analogy is spot on.
But if the above statements hold true would it be correct to assume that Dexamphetamine is in fact the purest Amphetamine we are likely to experience, based on the premise that most illegal Speed sold as Amphetamine is almost certainly Methamphetamine?
D-amphetamine isn't the 'purest' form of amphetamine, but it is the most POTENT. Again, be careful with your wording. Some illegal speed is amphetamine, and some is methamphetamine (depending on your location), but in both cases, usually the drug is all d-isomer (d-amph or d-meth).
As for a FAQ on meth, I'd be happy to write one, but there is a TON of information regarding amphetamines on the web, especially on Erowid. Do you feel that another one is really necessary?
 
Hell yeah that would be great. These questions (state, potency, effects, how the hell it all fits together) is always asked. Whenever I test something at a stall, or just talking to friends it would be great to see a faq with all this in it
 
fairnympth: a FAQ on meth by Bluelighters, for Bluelighters would be a great thing, putting the information in our context, if you know what I mean. Also if it had some information specifically for the countries we come from it would be invaluable.
 
Dexies are pure D-amphetamine (bar inactive binders of course).
People have long thought dexies to be some inferior form/type of amphetamine. This is ridiculously incorrect.
Obviously they are not methylamphetamine and CHEMICALLY not as powerful as street speed which is generally meth.
(however the street speed may be produced so poorly, or so cut down, that the dexies end up being considerably more effective).
Obviously dexies cannot really be taken by snorting which is one reason people feel they are inferior.
But for an oral dose of an amphetamine there is none cleaner or "safer" - u also know exactly WHAT u are consuming and the DOSE you are consuming.
The number of people who claim to have had actual amphetamine and like it, yet then criticise the humble dexie is worrying. (they are the SAME thing, except dexies are without any harmful chemicals except the d-amphetamine itself!)
I am glad some people are learning; thats the idea and the reason this site exists. But dont just thank us; anyone that contributes something in the way of a intelligent, thoughtful question should also be thanked. It may sound a tad philosophical, but without questions there can be no answers. :)
[ 20 May 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
 
johnboy -- In that case, I'll get cracking. There is a ton of info in OD as well as on other sites, so combining and editing/tailoring the information should be pretty effortless.
Thanks for the input, Aussies. :)
Btw, have we come to a conclusion, regarding whether 'speed' in Oz is usually amphetamine or methamphetamine?
 
Fairynymph: i think this thread and the one on "washing amphetamines" make it pretty clear as to peoples conclusions.
When u throw in Xtreme test results, anecdotal evidence and media reports when the drug gets busted there isnt much room for doubt.
Meth, meth and more meth.
 
Rightly or wrongly, there is certainly still a belief among some drug and alcohol professionals that speed=amphetamine, which is one of the reasons I raised the question. From the postings I would suggest that there is still some doubt about whether amphetamine is around in Australia, although most would seem to agree that methamphetamine is by far the most prevalent. Australia is a large country, and it seems likely to me that somewhere, sometime amphetamine will be sourced, sold and used.
The information on dexies is very relevant and I'm glad to see it raised here.
I was interested to see that ice is a separate chemical. However, I would suggest that ice information is also relevant to this thread, as crystal meth is sometimes passed off as ice and inexperienced users would not necessarily know the difference.
Drug terminology is a very inexact science and, while we may come to some agreements here, there will still be some confusion and misinformation out on the streets. Also terminology will differ from country to country. I have read on occasion that what is colloquially called meth or crystal in the USA is not the same chemical in Australia. I suspect the same applies to ice - erowid is a USA website as far as I know and info there on ice would presumably pertain to what is available on the streets of the US. For all we know, what users are sold as ice in Australia may be a different chemical(s).
To illustrate what I am saying, methadone clients in NSW alcohol and other drug treatment services are regularly assessed with the BTOM questionnaire (Brief Treatment Outcome Measure), which includes the following question: "How many days in the last month did you use amphetamines (speed, wiz, go-ee, ice)?"
The chemical info that has been posted here is superb :) Perhaps what would round this off is more information on the *effects* of the different compounds from the user's point of view.
Thanks everyone!
[ 21 May 2002: Message edited by: D&AWg ]
 
I was going to start a new thread but i remembered this one and realised it was all very connected; plus this is one thread which is a good one to dig up anyway...

The other day i came across some rather interesting information. Lets just say it concerned a case where someone was charged in relation to manufacturing "amphetamines".

Anyway the particulars of the charge and very interestingly, the complete FORENSIC ANALYSIS report was available. It turned out that the individual was charged with making 1-PHENYL-2-NITROPROPENE. (PNP)

People who understand amphetamine chemistry know what this means = regular RACEMIC AMPHETAMINE. Whereas when someone is busted with pseudoephedrine, red phopsphorus etc it must be meth they are making, someone who is busted with benzaldehyde and other chemicals to make PNP are almost always going to make amphetamine; and in this case it was just that.

So there it was..proof amphetamine is manufactured in W.A - in this case the potential for some several KILOGRAMS. One has to wonder then when u see the really big busts (like for instance the one in Serpentine in WA the other week) whether the chemicals they are finding are for the manufacture of amphetamine or methamphetamine. It just may be that will all this attention on pseudoephedrine lately, which is generally pharmaceutically sourced, criminals are going back to using more basic chemicals sourced from chemical companies/industry - and in that respect amphetamine is easier to do.

I will say this however: the chemicals this guy was busted with were very controlled and these reactions were definitely more complex and more steps needed to be taken than the basic pseudoephedrine --> meth route. So its likely this person had to be significantly experienced in chemistry and rather connected.

Finally i want to add that some 8, thats right 8 impurities, as in chemicals which were made IN or DURING or BY the synthesis were detected!!! Thats NOT including leftover rather toxic precursors which were also found. Now some of these chemicals had chemical names which would almost fill up a line of text almost. I'd say they would certainly be toxic, some may even be carcinogenic. Obviously the quantities they were detected in may have been extremely small but it goes to show just how many impurities exist when illicit drugs are made. Depending on the synthesis the amount and type of impurities found each time would be anyones guess. MDMA would be similar.

In fact pharmaceuticals would be no different either, its just the drug companies MUST REMOVE all those impurities from the prepared sample before giving it to you...criminals do not! Food for thought next time you are about to snort that brown, smelly, "its pure man", base speed ;)
 
Last edited:
hmm, maybe a knew thread was in order; unless of course the majority think this is completely useless information.
 
Last edited:
Not completely Biscuit [Oops, I meant to say not useless at all - whew! its been a long few days, going to bed with molecular orbitals and LFT buzzing round in my head....term nearly finished :) ]
This definitely confirms amphetamine is being produced in Australia. I guess otc often takes second place for what’s at arms reach. Access to chems through work would often present opportunities for those who knew what could be done with them. As said before, meth is easier to make, so it’s logical to assume most speed made is meth. I guess it teaches us not to underestimate the resourcefulness of those determined, and to not forget the many synthesis routes to amphetamine.
Your email has been sent. Hope the old address is ok
[ 15 June 2002: Message edited by: phase_dancer ]
 
As for the eight impurities; I'm sort of surprised there were only that many.

Without some pretty good separation and analysis equipment, it would normally be impossible to gauge how many impurities were present. From melting point variations it should be possible to tell if something else is there, if not what it/they could be and how nasty.

Trouble is even if impurities are identified, toxic properties of some compounds maybe completely unknown.
This story is a little off subject but relevant enough.

Most of us are probably familiar with MPTP.
In making a meperidine analogue (synthetic heroin) called MPPP, if reaction conditions are varied slightly, the product can be MPTP, a potent toxin to dopamine neurons in the substantia nigra of the mesencephalon (where the brain meets the spinal cord).

Years ago a few of us watched a show on the ABC about Parkinson’s Disease. A group of people had bought and used what they thought was heroin. It was in fact MPPP contaminated with MPTP. One of the people was a first timer - never used heroin before. All six (I think that was the number) developed almost instant Parkinson’s Disease - so bad it was difficult to look at them, they were so contorted. None could move at all without L-dopa, but because the damage was so extreme, the higher doses needed produced uncontrollable spasms and jerking within a short period. Very sad it was, with one girl, the first timer being only sixteen. It looked like there was no hope for any of them. Seven years or so later something incredible happened.

Research going on in Sweden was looking at transplanting stem cells into the brains of Parkinson’s patients to see if they would restore dopamine activity by growing into DA cells. The problem was, patients who (naturally?) developed the disease still had present whatever mechanisms were responsible for initially destroying their cells. It was found that after implanting stem cells in the brains of "normal" Parkinson’s patients, they showed initial improvement followed by decline. The new cells were being destroyed by the same process which killed the natural cells in the first place.

What researchers needed were patients who had developed the illness following exposure to a toxin which was no longer present. The MPTP patients were operated on, 2 at first, then the rest. All recovered. After years of not being able to move, talk or basically do anything, these guys were given another chance, and had their lives fully restored. Most people watching shed a tear.

Now what has this got to do with amphetamine? Well, it was an impurity which caused it. Although such DA cell poisonings have never to my knowledge been connected with speed, Parkinson’s can result with long term speed use. It appears the poor neurons just get overworked )although the mechanisms involved would undoubtedly be complex).

Liver toxicity and renal insufficiency are also common among long term users, and yet the medical texts claim low dosage amphetamine treatments are fairly safe for these organs (not including predispositions). So what about the contaminants, those things not present in pharmaceutical grade amphetamine? Biscuit already pointed out they are there; even in a product made by a person obviously with some chemical know how. These nasty products - at least some of them - especially those produced by ephedrine /HI reduction are bound to be toxic to the liver, even in minute amounts.


Excerpts from SNOWBLIND by Robert Sabbag, 1976 (talking about the sixties)
Speed in the counterculture is affectionately known as that which kills. Misused correctly it can burn you out quicker than smack.....A good hardline methedrine habit is the electromotor Grand Prix of suicide drug use.....where barbiturates are the gas chamber speed is the chair- one high-voltage electroorgasmic jolt and the lights go out. Overlord. Oblivion Express.....Where cocaine is the Bolivian blow dart, speed is the Enola Gay [ Ed: obviously written by a cocaine user]

...it was methedrine that was responsible for all those strange autopsies coming out of the drug underground in the Leary Years - SIXTEEN YEAR OLDS WITH THE INSIDES OF EIGHTY YEAR OLD MEN .....Frank Zappa [Said] ... stay away from speed it'll fry your brains, ruin your liver and, in general it'll make you about as fucked up as your parents.

So was it the speed or the impurities responsible for the deaths of users in the early/mid sixties? In the US, early on in the sixties, most speed was sourced through illicit manufacturing (via P2P methods), but this trend changed around mid 60's. The pharmaceutical companies took over the market, with production and prescriptions soaring. In 1970 government responded by announcing that legal production would be cut back! The following year 12 billion pills were produced in the US.

That was 60 x 10mg pills for every person in the states.


That was then and there, this is now and here.
The speed around now is almost all illicitly produced, and contains some degree of impurity. If only authorities would release details of analytical reports. I just can't understand why they won’t do it, simply in the interests of drug deterrence education and community health. It seems public security will always take first place to public well being...wait a minute, aren’t they sort of the same thing?
 
Last edited:
Releasing analytical reports of the contents of drugs seized would be a great way for the police to show they really are trying to help the public by actually giving some grounds to their ‘drugs are bad’ campaigns. Most users probably realise that drugs have long and short term side effects, but due to the extent of damage to ones body by continuing drug use being unknown to some degree giving details of known impurities in these drugs and known effects on the body could be a good way for them to argue their point. I'd imagine if they released reports showing that speed contained all these other deadly impurities they could use it as a scare mongering campaign in a similar fashion to the glass/rat poison in pills media beat ups, you would think they would jump at the chance.
I assume considering the majority of amphetamines are being produced illegally by backyard chemists that the amount of impurities in today’s meth could be similar to that of the 60's? I don't understand enough of the routes of production to comment on that really. I'd imagine the techniques would be more refined but are the chemicals used in production similar to what would have been used then?
Biscuit that’s far from useless information, it's quite interesting to note that amphetamines are definitely produced. From my previous understanding I would have thought we were consuming mainly different variations of methamphetamine, it makes you wonder how common normal amphetamines are but going on past assumptions probably not all that common. How common is it for an analytical report to surface?
 
Phase-daancer: good point about the number of impurities; the ones which were found, which i'll get to u soon, were those which almost always were produced by someone attempting to make amphetamine by the method used; so in other words they went looking for those particular impurities for an evidentary/legal purpose; to further prove their case.
Obviously there was probably other impurities present which they didnt bother to completely determine or couldnt determine.
Fry-d: not too often i imagine; i merely got the opportunity to see it in a completely legit but rare occurrence.
However all this evidence would have been presented in court; and as any member of the public can attend a court trial, anyone could discover this information by attending the trial; The media unfortunately however dont bother to report the actual charge (making PNP) but just say "manufacture of amphetamines".
Getting a hard copy of reports like this though i doubt would be easy but i would think it is still public information.
 
I just like to add that I know for a fact, that a yellow substance tested at the last earthcore by enlighten did test as amphetamine with the ez supreme.
 
So, given that it's hard to know exactly what substances are being used out there, does anyone here know the difference in EFFECTS between amphetamine and methamphetamine?
:D
 
given that you've had to ask this a few times, im beginning to think that apart from anecdotal 2nd or 3rd hand personal experiences, not many people really know the true pharmacological difference of effects. Killer thread by the way.
 
Top