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Trolley Problem

Vader

Bluelight Crew
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Aug 31, 2009
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I thought it would be interesting to hear people's opinions on the trolley problem. The basic idea is that you see a runaway train headed for a group of three people, who are unable to move out of the way of the train. You can not reach them, but you can change the points to divert the train. The problem is, if you do this there is another person who would be killed. So what is the right thing to do? Should you let the train continue and kill three, or divert it and sacrifice someone else to save them?
I personally think that it is totally unethical to sacrifice the bystander, and to treat life as expendable if this is justified by the ends.
What does everyone else think? Also if anyone has any interesting variations on the problem that'd be cool.
 
I'd let fate take its course. By diverting the train and killing one person, I'd be directly responsible for his death. My actions killed him. I think that's worse than allowing the train to continue toward the group of three, who I can't reach.

Besides, they should know better than to play on railway tracks! ;)
 
^ You speak of fate as if it is a concious driving force. Its not.

I would diver it, and then cry for the rest of my life. This situation, as postualetd, is absurd though :\

"The only thing evil men need to triumph is for good men to do nothing ..."

Could throwing oneself in front of it stop ts course, or at least get the brakes stamped down? That is my alternate solution.
 
^ Well I don't know much about fate, but the fact is that the train is heading towards three people, and if nothing is done to alter its direction, it will hit them. It's the natural outcome of the situation.

I've been thinking about this today, and I've got a little challenge for the trolly problem! It assumes we have an impetus to save lives - we must decide to save either one person or three. But what if we choose not to get involved? There's no logical reason why we even have to make a choice here. Sure, most people instinctively try to help those in need, but this isn't a general rule. Some people would be more inclined to turn the other cheek.
 
Well, i would go to prison for diverting it. So for that and because the less people living on this earth the better, and because if your stupid enough to be standing in the way of a train you deserve it, i would NOT divert it.
 
^ Well I don't know much about fate, but the fact is that the train is heading towards three people, and if nothing is done to alter its direction, it will hit them. It's the natural outcome of the situation.

I've been thinking about this today, and I've got a little challenge for the trolly problem! It assumes we have an impetus to save lives - we must decide to save either one person or three. But what if we choose not to get involved? There's no logical reason why we even have to make a choice here. Sure, most people instinctively try to help those in need, but this isn't a general rule. Some people would be more inclined to turn the other cheek.

Well, this isn't a logical question, it's an ethical one. So there's no logical reason we would do anything, but we have an ethical obligation to do something.

If you can save two lives just by flipping a switch, then to not flip the switch is unethical. It's the same as watching someone die right in front of you when all you had to do was snap your fingers and they'd be fine. If we did that, we would be condemned as a callous monster.
 
It's not meant to be a realistic scenario people. It's meant to stir up an intuitive response that we can then examine in detail.
^If it's ethical to kill one person to save the life of three in this situation, is it equally moral for a doctor to harvest the organs of a stranger off the street to save three people? If not, what makes these situations different?
 
Killing 1 or letting 3 die?

I let people die all the time. Wouldn't want to kill someone though.
 
the situation itself is unethical. therefor, any outcome will be unethical.
the responsability is usually escaped through God (fate). if all persons are truly innocent, there is no God. queue suicide.
 
the situation itself is unethical. therefor, any outcome will be unethical.
So you're saying that no-one can possibly avoid doing the wrong thing in this scenario?
 
^If it's ethical to kill one person to save the life of three in this situation, is it equally moral for a doctor to harvest the organs of a stranger off the street to save three people? If not, what makes these situations different?

the difference here is that death is not a train that can be stopped. their death can only be postponed. as such different valuation may ensue.
[edit: though this may be viewed as a rather abitrary difference when one keeps himself to stringent calculation, resulting in little actual difference in valuation provided one doesn't bring in other situation-tied variables]

classic slippery slope of unrestrained ethical calculus though.
 
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the difference here is that death is not a train that can be stopped. their death can only be postponed.
Surely the people in the train scenario are just as mortal, and so one could argue that saving them is equally just a "postponement" of death?
yes. provided all persons are undeserving of their possible fate.
So, given that the whole world is full of suffering and inequality, could I not argue all of our situations to be unethical? And if so, doesn't that mean that persisting in this world at all is an evil action?
 
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Surely the people in the train scenario are just as mortal, and so one could argue that saving them is equally just a "postponement" of death?

i concede it is a rather arbitrary difference [see edit just before you posted this reply]. there is still an irreducable difference though -when one strictly limits himself to the situation at hand- in the fact that organ failure is a matter of time, while stopping the train is an absolute avertment.

So, given that the whole world is full of suffering and unequal, could I not argue all of our situations to be unethical? And if so, doesn't that mean that persisting in this world at all is an evil action?

the problem in your trolley problem is that the situation does not allow for even a possibly ethical outcome. If you say the people in the trolley problem are real world people with history and faults, then conceding that this cannot be your judgement, and allowing fate to run its course would be the ethical thing to do. for any detailed moral issues within the persons escape your perception. any choice cannot be justified.

its equally impossible to prove the suffering and inequality of the world are fundamentally unjust. However, the assumption, be it only an unprovable assumption, that it is just, in the end, is universally human. it simply has to be. when we see it is not, we ourselves set up institutions to make it as such. (and yes, even sociopaths, serial killers etc. do justify themselves, but only to themselves; in a schizophrenic/psychotic solipsist-like fashion, which allows for anything really. they do not allow for any 'alterior' respons (-ability)). thus we set up an external, impartial system for justice.

when one assumes it is not, and assumes it cannot ever be, a state of cognitive dissonace ensues, and maintaining the will to live (in a world of which you know it will always take advantage of you from the beginning, and will always treat you completly unjust, without any hope) can be difficult, if not impossible. For no measure of trust can ever be built up, and no love is possible

the ontological tragedy is, that it is exactly this fundamental trust in the good that makes us vulnerable to evil, allowing for evils existence. the absolute victory of evil would be to destroy this trust, and this is what it seeks to do. however, it would also paradoxically be the self-destruction of evil, for this trust, in being an unprovable open-endedness, is the only reason evil can uberhaupt exist. without fundamental trust, there is no access-point for anything other then self; but, resulting in absolute meaninglessness (which would be eternal suffering of absolute fact solipsism). thus this trust can't nor ever will be a proven fact [unambiguous certainty], for that would, again paradoxically, be the ultimate victory of evil; for the trust-relation is destroyed by a need of proof. the trust relation allows for seperateness within communion. much like it is with children growing up. the destruction of the trust-relation seperates the two entities defining themselves in terms of the other. which ultimately results in nothingness. which is the ground of all fear. which is angst. which is origin. neither good nor evil by itself. only through its trust in itself as other, its creation, it is 'good'. thus it is good because it trusts.

my ontological excursion probably won't make much sense. but this inaccurate example may shed some light. please don't go picking on the example, its inaccurate.

terrorism vs a free state: the acts of terrorism make the state want to protect itself from this evil. it does so by passing legislation, controlling, tightening freedoms (loses its trust). which ultimately end up rendering the state a freedomless police state. Now what is the difference between the force the police state applies to its citizens to ensure its safety with the force the terrorism applied to the state? trust has been replaced by control/power/force/certainty/suffocating safety

[/lights his pipe]
 
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Killing 1 or letting 3 die?

I let people die all the time. Wouldn't want to kill someone though.

I agree. Like I said earlier, being the direct cause of a single death is much worse than allowing 3 people to die. I've never killed, but I'm sure I could have prevented a few deaths if I gave blood, donated money to charity, etc. I can live with that.
 
I'd bite the bullet and just kill the one. It would be much harder to live with myself having allowed three people to die when I could have actively saved them by killing just one. Sure, I'd hate myself for it, but it's coldly logical, and one of the few times I'd consider myself a strict utilitarian.
 
^ You speak of fate as if it is a concious driving force. Its not.

I would diver it, and then cry for the rest of my life. This situation, as postualetd, is absurd though :\

Its philosophy! =D
Of course its absurd!

haha

However, one could conceive of a more probable real world application of this scenario quite easily I think.
*thinking* terrorists and hostages.


I think another way of looking at this problem (and sorry if someone already mentioned this) is that say we have a doctor for example. Only doctor around, 4 patients both in need of urgent care.
1 patient will require all the doctors time such that when he is done operating on this patient, all the others have died.
The other 3 patients can be saved in a reasonable amount of time.

What would be the right thing to do? I say save the 3 patients.

And remember, don't start trying to nitpick at the details, we can insert all sorts of "what ifs" and little tidbits here and there, its important to just remember the concept and main point that its designed to make you think of.. no loop holes.
 
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It's not meant to be a realistic scenario people. It's meant to stir up an intuitive response that we can then examine in detail.
^If it's ethical to kill one person to save the life of three in this situation, is it equally moral for a doctor to harvest the organs of a stranger off the street to save three people? If not, what makes these situations different?

No, its not moral, on the basis that its not the same situation.

In the first scenario, death is a certain outcome.

In the doctor harvesting organs scenario, those 3 people might die without organs, but that stranger is only doomed to death if the doctor has to harvest his organs :)

I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding your scenario.
But if the doctor has to TAKE the orgrans from that stranger, its definitely not moral.
 
In the doctor harvesting organs scenario, those 3 people might die without organs, but that stranger is only doomed to death if the doctor has to harvest his organs
Their deaths of the 3 are meant to be just as certain in both cases. The only difference is supposed to be whether the death is caused by a lever being pulled, or by kidnap, murder and subsequent organ harvesting. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
 
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