Kratom Withdrawals

[Ziiirp]

@ChinaCat13

Sounds fishy. Kratom seldomly made me nauseaus, even on first trials. Only the "USA"-labeled stuff made me almost vomit. It seems almost certain, that there are chemical opioid RCs involved in the manufacturing. Can't you ask someone to use their paypal and you pay them in cash to get real Kratom and taper ? The Kratom from that "shop" I would not touch to be honest (I know smartass advice but it has to be said).

Good advice from Slow_Mobius. L-Theanine is a godsend also. And Valerian at night.

 

[Mycophile]

Sorry, just heard that you said that you haven't used Heroin or other opiates for years.

But I have to say that it just doesn't make sense to me that anyone's Kratom WD can be worse than Heroin, and while I believe you are telling the truth that you are experiencing this, it is VERY rare for people to actually believe it's worse than Heroin WD if you look at people's accounts.

Not saying people don't find it bad at times, but not THAT bad.

I don't know what the reasons could be that you find it so much worse than usual, but there must certainly be some extra factors here, because what you describing is extremely atypical in terms of intensity of Kratom WD.

But I'm sorry it's so bad for you, for whatever reasons.

 

[ChinaCat13]

While Kratom IS addictive, and I'm sorry your WD is so bad, I don't see how the WD you are experiencing can mostly be from Kratom or how it can be worse than Heroin.

I think it is pretty close to unanimously agreed upon that Kratom WD cannot be nearly as bad as Heroin WD.

I've never heard anyone say it is "10X worse than Heroin WD".

Are you sure you are not still withdrawing from another opiate and mistaking that WD for Kratom WD?

Where you taking another opiate prior to Kratom?

And how many grams do you take and days per week do you take Kratom?

I just don't think Kratom WD can be as bad as Heroin WD, even though it is certainly addictive.

If it is for you, you are certainly a big minority there and very few people feel that way.

Please read the rest of my posts. I have already stated that i was not detoxing from any opiates before I started taking kratom. I already stated that I take 6-7 grams powder mixed with OJ 2-3 times daily. Im telling you MY withdrawal is 10x worse than heroin withdrawal. Its way way worse. At least with heroin, there was a damn up side, being high asf. With kratom, I get minimal pain relief and a slight head buzz, nothing more. The bad far outweighs the good at this point. I do not have access to any other medicines period. Only stuff I can buy in stores, over the counter or on shelves. I even tried loperamide. Didnt work at all.

 

[Mycophile]

That sounds horrible to me. I get more and more the feeling, that most of you guys in the US get adulterated Kratom (maybe often they mix o-desmethyltramadol into it, which is a strong opioid) or perhaps you have just really genetically enhanced Kratom in the US, which causes all this trouble. In Europe the Kratom you get is nothing, an opiate user would fancy, it is just a weird herbal drug on par with maybe Cannabis. The Kratom here is acts more like a stimulant. I once had so called "Red Vein Kratom USA" and it made me almost vomit from a low dose, I could not get out of bed for a few hours or move, it was so strong.

Did you try Phillipino or Vietnamese strains ? Those are the most natural imho (maybe change your vendor and make sure, that it is not adulterated at all, Kratom should not have such a high content of 7-ho-mitragynine/mitragynine.)

I don't know what country you are from, but I think this is not probably true for most in the U.S.

It must be dependent on vendor, but I've used quite a few, and while my Kratom use is light compared to most because I have never used it more than 5 days a week (usually take it 3-4), I've only ever had 6 days of WD that were uncomfortable but not THAT bad and I was up to about 35 grams a day.

I think it's a small percentage of U.S. Kratom that is adulterated.

 

[Mycophile]

Please read the rest of my posts. I have already stated that i was not detoxing from any opiates before I started taking kratom. I already stated that I take 6-7 grams powder mixed with OJ 2-3 times daily. Im telling you MY withdrawal is 10x worse than heroin withdrawal. Its way way worse. At least with heroin, there was a damn up side, being high asf. With kratom, I get minimal pain relief and a slight head buzz, nothing more. The bad far outweighs the good at this point. I do not have access to any other medicines period. Only stuff I can buy in stores, over the counter or on shelves. I even tried loperamide. Didnt work at all.

Yes I am sorry I wrote back that I hadn't read them.

I certainly believe you that YOURS is worse, and while it doesn't help you that it is rare, I am still just wondering why because it is so unusual.

I am not saying I haven't read people who were having weeks of very unpleasant Kratom WD, cause I have, but there's was because their usage was so out of control, and I still think for them it couldn't be worse than Heroin.

So yeah, I am not doubting your experience, but something quite unusual and rare is going on that it would be of that intensity.

I mean Heroin is just so much stronger in every way than Kratom, so it would seem logical that the WD must almost always be worse.

That doesn't help you out of your situation though, so I'm sorry it's so rough for you.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

L-theanine, valerian, kava, and antihistamines are all OTC meds that can help in certain ways. None of those will give you great relief IMO, but it would be better than nothing.

Cannabis or hemp oil can help too

 

[Mycophile]

I keep hearing Loperamide (when NOT abused in large doses) can be a lifesaver, but I've never tried it.

People have also said that Phenibut can help possibly, but it can't be used too often (I think it's risky to use it more than 2 days a week) or it can cause WD that is MUCH worse than Kratom WD.

Also OP, I have heard people use stem and vein Kratom from certain vendors to taper off Kratom because it is weaker, probably the weakest kind of Kratom for one trying to get off stronger kinds, or you might want to try other strains or other vendors in search of those with the weakest alkaloids and lowest % of Mitragynine so you can gradually have less in your system.

Seems reasonable as an idea at least.

 

[ChinaCat13]

Im broke. I cannot afford anything today, or else I would just buy some more kratom lol. Antihistamines are the WORST for opiate and kratom withdrawal. I have bad allergies and have to take them almost daily, and since this whole kratom nightmare I can rarely even take those to help with my allergies any more because they make me feel way worse when the withdrawal kicks in. I get paid tomorrow so Ill be heading out to get an ounce, just wish I didnt have to. I cannot function at all without it and I have too many responsibilities right now. I have no time for a 3 week detox or even a week detox. Just have to get through tonight. I wont sleep so, it's gonna be a long one. FML. The severity of my withdrawal isn't actually that rare. I have read several posts from several different people (at other forums) who go through the exact same thing I do. There are many out there who think Kratom is the worst drug to detox from of ALL the drugs on the planet. Yah yah, kratom is a plant...blah blah. IMO it's a drug. If I can get addicted to it, it's a drug. Just sayin. A friend of mine who also uses kratom, we buy from the same shop and he goes through pretty shitty withdrawal too, not as bad as mine but I think he uses other stuff too. He usually finds some opiates or stimulants or something and doesnt ever have to really detox. Knowing I can get some tomorrow is a comfort but right now I would punch a baby for 10 bucks.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

Kratom can definitely be addictive, but WD tends to be much worse among people who previously used opioids. I also wonder if there's something iffy about the kratom if your friend who also buys from the same place gets WDs that are also really bad

 

[ChinaCat13]

I would think the same thing if I hadnt read several posts from others who go through the same thing. It's probably not the kratom. Though who really knows what they put in that stuff?

 

[Slow_Mobius]

I would think the same thing if I hadnt read several posts from others who go through the same thing. It's probably not the kratom. Though who really knows what they put in that stuff?

Well, most people seem to think kratom WD are very minor compared to other opioid WD. However, there are always scattered reports of people who think kratom WD are comparable or even worse than "harder" opioid WD, like you. Usually, those people have at least one of several things in common such as using extracts, previous addiction to street opioids (which is true of your case and the kindling effect is very real), or coming off of very large habits (like an ounce a day). But I also think that some kratom products could be adulterated. I don't know if they're actually containing RCs (but there are previous confirmed cases of this happening), but I think some vendors sell enhanced products and label them as plain leaf. I've been experimenting with many different vendors lately, and I have to say that some vendors' products feel much more potent and sedating than others.

Now, this is all subjective, and because the FDA are a bunch of jerk-offs who don't do their job, there's no regulation of kratom products, so vendors can really do whatever they want to increase their profit margins. Admittedly, I could be completely wrong and just offering some speculation, but I think some kratom products are being adulterated in some way. It's happened before, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's still happening.

As for why your WD are so bad, it could be due to an adulterated product, it could be due to kindling effect, it could be that you have some real health problems that were being masked by the kratom, or it could be that you just have crappy luck and you don't tolerate kratom WD well. I don't think we can say for sure what the cause is, but I'm sorry you have to deal with those problems. I would recommend trying to get kratom from a couple different places, or if you want to quit, get some more kratom tomorrow and start tapering. Tapering not only makes CT WD more manageable, but it can also eliminated PAWS

 

[ChinaCat13]

Yah, I dont have any other place I can buy it from. And they dont sell stem and vein either. Just powder. I can try tapering but that's going to be full time detox for me anyway, so what's the point lol. I mean, if I take less that my normal dose, I still feel like shit and still have withdrawal. So taking less would just be torture and a waste of money. If Im going to detox and go through withdrawal I'm just going to have to do it cold turkey. I don't have the restraint to taper. If I know I have kratom in there and that's the only thing that can get my sick off, I'm going to do what I need to do to make myself feel better no matter what. I was a terrible junkie. Every time i detoxed from heroin I had to do it cold turkey, no rehab or detox center. Just me kickin at home. The first thing I ever got addicted to was methadone, and the detox from that was actually pretty fucking terrible. Worse than this for sure. I was taking it for back pain, and had never been addicted to anything before in my life. A friend of mine was getting it for pain and gave me some and I was like whaaaaat? It worked so well. I started taking it every day and then buying it on the street and then I was hooked. It was how all this got started. Funny how I got addicted to methadone before I got addicted to heroin haha.

 

[Mycophile]

Well, most people seem to think kratom WD are very minor compared to other opioid WD. However, there are always scattered reports of people who think kratom WD are comparable or even worse than "harder" opioid WD, like you. Usually, those people have at least one of several things in common such as using extracts, previous addiction to street opioids (which is true of your case and the kindling effect is very real), or coming off of very large habits (like an ounce a day). But I also think that some kratom products could be adulterated. I don't know if they're actually containing RCs (but there are previous confirmed cases of this happening), but I think some vendors sell enhanced products and label them as plain leaf. I've been experimenting with many different vendors lately, and I have to say that some vendors' products feel much more potent and sedating than others.

Now, this is all subjective, and because the FDA are a bunch of jerk-offs who don't do their job, there's no regulation of kratom products, so vendors can really do whatever they want to increase their profit margins. Admittedly, I could be completely wrong and just offering some speculation, but I think some kratom products are being adulterated in some way. It's happened before, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's still happening.

As for why your WD are so bad, it could be due to an adulterated product, it could be due to kindling effect, it could be that you have some real health problems that were being masked by the kratom, or it could be that you just have crappy luck and you don't tolerate kratom WD well. I don't think we can say for sure what the cause is, but I'm sorry you have to deal with those problems. I would recommend trying to get kratom from a couple different places, or if you want to quit, get some more kratom tomorrow and start tapering. Tapering not only makes CT WD more manageable, but it can also eliminated PAWS

And what I also hate about this is that now because the FDA is being employed by the DEA to try to make Kratom seem horrible so they can schedule it, we are essentially given a choice between non-regulated Kratom like it is now (which it would be better if we DID have regulation) and actually ILLEGAL and SCHEDULED Kratom.

While I hate the DEA and think they should be entirely disbanded, by and large I think the FDA serves an important roll and usually does good things, but now they have just taken on the role of the bad guy so we have to feel like they are evil also.

If they could just regulate it to make sure it's not adulterated and keep it legal we could have the best of both worlds.

 

[Mycophile]

Yah, I dont have any other place I can buy it from. And they dont sell stem and vein either. Just powder. I can try tapering but that's going to be full time detox for me anyway, so what's the point lol. I mean, if I take less that my normal dose, I still feel like shit and still have withdrawal. So taking less would just be torture and a waste of money. If Im going to detox and go through withdrawal I'm just going to have to do it cold turkey. I don't have the restraint to taper. If I know I have kratom in there and that's the only thing that can get my sick off, I'm going to do what I need to do to make myself feel better no matter what. I was a terrible junkie. Every time i detoxed from heroin I had to do it cold turkey, no rehab or detox center. Just me kickin at home. The first thing I ever got addicted to was methadone, and the detox from that was actually pretty fucking terrible. Worse than this for sure. I was taking it for back pain, and had never been addicted to anything before in my life. A friend of mine was getting it for pain and gave me some and I was like whaaaaat? It worked so well. I started taking it every day and then buying it on the street and then I was hooked. It was how all this got started. Funny how I got addicted to methadone before I got addicted to heroin haha.

Why can't you buy it from any other vendor?

Have you ever tried Loperamide?

I haven't, and don't know what dosages to take and how often and all that, but I keep hearing it helps.

 

[ChinaCat13]

I cant buy online, no credit card. There are only 2 places close enough to drive to nearby that I can buy from and one of them is too expensive so I only have ONE option. Buy from the place Ive been buying from. I dont have anyone who will let me use a paypal or credit card. I stated that yes, I did try loperimide. Didnt work. I tried a pretty high dose. I dont recommend it at all.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

ChinaCat, I have to ask about how you've tapered in past. The way youre supposed to taper is to start by taking just enough to make you feel more or less normal. Basically, you don't take enough to feel any sort of high or buzz, but you do take enough to alleviate WD symptoms. Then, you only lower your dose as quickly as you can manage. Even if you only lower your dose by 10% or so every week, it would be more manageable than CT. If you still feel bad WDs from trying to taper, then you're probably not tapering right.

But everyone is different, so maybe tapering just doesn't work for you? It definitely does take a lot of self control. However you decide to deal with your WD, I wish you the best of luck You might try making a post in Sober Living to get some more help along the way

 

[Mycophile]

I cant buy online, no credit card. There are only 2 places close enough to drive to nearby that I can buy from and one of them is too expensive so I only have ONE option. Buy from the place Ive been buying from. I dont have anyone who will let me use a paypal or credit card. I stated that yes, I did try loperimide. Didnt work. I tried a pretty high dose. I dont recommend it at all.

That sucks (both that Lope didn't work and no credit card).

As a rule, most people agree that headshop Kratom is both over priced and too expensive.

Even though you can't now, have you ever bought Kratom online, and have you tried a lot of vendors and did they all give you as bad WD as the place you use?

 

[ChinaCat13]

I have never tried an online vendor. Im buying from the 2nd place I bought from when I started. The first place was a sex shop. Like where they sell dildos and stuff lol. I found out about it by researching online where they sell kratom in my area. That place was the closest. So I went in and got a half ounce for 15 bucks. I had no idea of what the pricing should be, I just knew I needed something for pain. It did help so I ended up buying from there one more time. Then I talked to my friend who told me about the other place that was cheaper for more. They sell an ounce for 10. Been buying there ever since. Ive looked at online vendors for pricing and it seems im getting a pretty good deal. I dont have to wait, worry about shipping, all that good stuff. Online kratom is more expensive than what Im paying now. I do need to find out where theyre getting it and what the brand is. Ive become pretty good friends with one of the guys who works there.

I have never tried to taper from Kratom. I tried it with methadone, but I suck at it. I have no self control at all. If I'm in WD, I will do whatever I have to to make myself feel better. I HAVE, however, taken less than my normal dose because I didn't have enough for a full dose, and all that happens is I go into WD quicker, which in turn, makes me use more sooner than I usually would, so it's really counterproductive. As it is, Im already in WD every single day at least twice a day. I wake up in withdrawal in the morning, and I am I wake up in the middle of the night in WD. I go into WD starting around 3 to 4 hours after my last dose. So here's my dosing schedule. I wake up around 9am, drink some coffee, then dose around 10am. I dont dose again until 3 or 4pm. By then I'm in a bad WD. Then I dont dose again til around 9 or 10. I go to sleep around 2-3am and by then Im already in WD but I tough it out and toss and turn and suffer through until morning. Its exhausting. I cant afford to dose more than I already am. I cannot afford this shit period any more. Another friend of mine I just found out is also taking kratom. Shes been buying the capsules. She also wants to quit and has gnarly withdrawals. She lives about 4 hours away from me so we get it at different places. Im sure she gets it at a head shop.

Would it be against the rules to ask about good brand online vendors?

 

[ChinaCat13]

And no, I have never ever bought online, as I said, I dont have access to a credit card. EVER. I am asking for my other friend now about online vendors. One that sells stem and vein for tapering.

 

[Pickledlemons]

Taking around 75g in the morning and then again in the evening. The w/d's arent that bad, its the akathisia i cant deal with. have some immodium but find it doesnt work very well.

Smokealot: Kratom can be quite addictive. i started using it instead of codeine as it lasts longer and as you mentioned its a great SSRI, so helps with my depression. But at this stage i'm only taking it everyday to feel normal.

Holy thats a lot of kratom. If you cant handle the W/ds maybe do a taper.