• Philosophy and Spirituality
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Threads of Note Socialize
  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

Let's talk about Racism

Moderator's note: the biography and personal conditions of the poster leave unaffected the validity of her arguments, with 1 exception: if a poster deploys personal experience as a source of data, it may be scrutinized and critiqued with valid bearing on the quality of the argument.

Again, your small-minded assumptions and contradictions make this a hard argument to participate in.

Sorry, if you want a rational discussion or debate, you'll have to come up with something better than that.

You are standing on the cliff's edge of personal insult, which is unnecessary at best (yes, I know, you were provoked...but I don't believe in vengeance in general.
 
You are standing on the cliff's edge of personal insult, which is unnecessary at best (yes, I know, you were provoked...but I don't believe in vengeance in general.

Point taken.
Thanks for pointing it out in a gentle way.
 
Um, if racism is human nature, then why do you think that I can't comment on racism since I live in Japan?8)

^ Most definently! I haven't had the priveledge to do much traveling outside the U.S., but I've been around people of different races\ethnicities enough to know that racism is not simply a "black" vs. "white" thing.

It's not a matter of a specific race, or a specific country, its the fact that some people are threatened/scared/etc. of people who are different than themselves.

And I also agree that simply accepting racism because it's the easiest\most natural thing to do is wrong!!

Before going to college, I didn't have as much interaction with other races besides my own as I do now. I ended up living with a black girl my past year of university for the first time. Yes, admittedly it was a little uncomfortable at first, simply because it was unknown territory (not because I dislike other races!) and I assumed I wouldn't be able to relate to her on a lot of things - I couldn't have been more wrong. She's a great friend of mine now. Sometimes you have to push your comfort zone a little bit. I can look back now and say maybe I was a bit ignorant prior to our friendship, I'm not ashamed to admit it. It's a lesson learned.

When you get down to our biological makeup, there are not that many differences between people of different races. A professor of mine gave us some statisical breakdowns, and I do not recall exact numbers, but as humans we all have more in common than we do different (this is obvious, but its something to keep in mind!)

Culturally is where I think you start to see more seperation. And if we can all agree to disagree and have mutual respect for each others beliefs and lifestyles, that's a big step to overcome racism. Granted, that's not always an easy thing to do, and there are some people you will just never accept... but at least dislike them on a personal level, for what they DO, not what they look like. The skin color isn't what makes a person act how they act, or believe what they believe, etc. One again, all of this is probably obvious, but I just wanted to put it out there anyway.

Sorry for the long length, but *certain* posts in here just anger me a bit. Maybe its because I deal with racists in my bfs family and it's just something I've grown to really despise. :p
 
Last edited:
You people who spend all day picking apart someone because they have a differing point a view make me stay on the Substance Abuse/Harm reduction side of the fence...You come voice your opinion on this sucker and someone is gonna make an ass of you.

I am sorry for anything offensive I have said, I didn't try to make anyone feel like an idiot though.

I am wrong, I commented on this whole thing from my seat in Texas.
I know racism exists all over, I said it's human nature, humans are all over...
Yes, some countries do have official languages, I learned something today. But go to Holland, who has an official language, and I bet there is someone speaking english...But yes you would make a great lawyer.
But let me ask a rhetorical question,
What language is our constitution and all other American law written in? (besides a little latin...geez i'm sure i'm an idiot here too but oh well)
English.
Where can you talk to damn near anyone with the english language, America...
Who founded our colonies before we were even america, the english!
So, even though it's not official, it's pretty damn close.

I apologize for my small minded contradictions assumptions and exxagerations...

And p.s. slim, about me speaking spanish... man I worked in a mexican restaurant for 3 years, i know lots of spanish, mostly food words and dirty shit :), I never claimed to speak good spanish, in fact what i thought I was writing was " I speak a little spanish for all the wets in texas but spanish is difficult for gringos" I mean there you go, I said I speak a little, and you took 3 hours dissecting tu and sabes... Slim, if you got a problem with me PM me, your probably double my age and intellect but you ain't gonna sit and pick at me. Yes I said ain't, it means aren't...

But on the issue of racism, I wish people would just see it's something that happens and it is so deeply driven into society (at least where I live) that we won't get around it in our lifetime and the best way to rid ourselves is to teach our children to have open minds... I surely will. Thank you for your time.
 
I am NOT saying that the US is Nazi Germany and that the US will try to exterminate us. I am only saying that just as in Germany we see a serious backlash beginning against us. The Walt and Mearsheimer Paper and all this anti-Israel crap which more than 9 times out of 10 is simply a vehichle for overt anti-Jewishness (i.e. so called "Anti-Semitism").


In a broader sense, anyone who has either been to Israel or merely paid attention when seeing it on TV or in the media knows that most Israelis are tan to black in actual skin colour. Until the influx of Jews from the former USSR more than 70% of us were brown or black (in Israel). Now it is a bit over 60% so the basic point remains valid.

I have to disagree with what you're saying about antizionism being linked with anti-semitism (though anti-Jewishness is a better term). I don't like the state of Israel, I don't like it's militant politics or how it handles foreign affairs. I don't like how it gets preferential treatement amongst middle-eastern nations (its the only one allowed to have nuclear weapons). And I don't like how the state of Israel has a very strong lobby in the U.S. (its our ally and is supposed to help us in themiddle east (which we shouldn't be in in the first place) and so we give it billions of dollars of aid every year. Its more of a parasitic than a symbiotic relationship).

As a matter of fact, I have been to Israel (though I am not Jewish) and I foundit to be an absolutely fascinating nation, however I noticed they way that Israel treated Arabs and I was disconcerted. I also noticed the militarized nature of the state, the border patrol stations when crossinginto Palestine was ridiculous. This is a police state.

The entire principle upon which Israel was founded is equally absurd; land was taken from a people that lived there for centuries, and given to the Jewish people as some sort of pology for the Holocaust. Really, the Palestinians have every right to hate Israel, and though I am against terrorism and militant Islam, I can't say that Israel is any better.

That being said, I have no problem with Jews, I especially find Orthodox of Hascidic Jews to be fascinating in terms of their depth of knowledge of Jewish Scripture and their devotiuon to their faith.
 
resident Texan said:
You people who spend all day picking apart someone because they have a differing point a view make me stay on the Substance Abuse/Harm reduction side of the fence...You come voice your opinion on this sucker and someone is gonna make an ass of you.

Off-topic general exploration of parameters of discussion:
1. I don't spend all day doing this. I find this type of debate to be good recreation.
2. I am a sociologist, I'm currently grading students' work for a course in the sociology of race, and I'm considering a research project centering on racialization. Basically, I am into this shit, I am beginning to become competent with it, and I've been trained to interrogate logical and empirical validity.
3. Bracketing personal insults, why do you feel threatened when your views face interrogation? What sort of discussion do you want to have? Something like, "This is my view. . .", and then people will reply with "Yeah, me too," or "No, but I have experienced [some non-sequitor]. . ."?

Sounds kinda mundane to me. I tend to learn a lot more when critically examining, analyzing, synthesizing, etc. Please try not to take it as an attack.

4. Didn't you yourself try to discount someone's views because he was Japanese? People tend to come across more credibly when they do more to mitigate or conceal their hypocrisy (the latter being the human condition).

In sum, if you feel like an ass when someone criticizes your views without resorting to personal attacks or other forms of malice, you may feel like less of an ass after having scrutinized your own views.

I didn't try to make anyone feel like an idiot though.

This is not my intention here...ever...well, sometimes it's nice to make someone who insulted another's intelligence look like an idiot. Hey; irony is fun! ;)

back on topic:
What language is our constitution and all other American law written in?

What bearing does this have on what current public policy should be? Sure, during that period, the American settler-populace, and especially the aristocratically linked politico-economic elites, mostly took English as their native tongue, so of course they authored political procedure therein.

Our demographics have changed, along with our cultures and speech communities, so English as a monolithic official tongue no longer makes sense.

Remember that appeals to tradition are logically fallacious.

Who founded our colonies before we were even america, the english!

So those who were most successful in invading North America were English. What does this indicate about what should be done now? Hell, in a sense this invalidates your argument in that the ubiquity of English language in the US area depended crucially on a campaign of genocide undertaken by external invaders.

I wish people would just see it's something that happens and it is so deeply driven into society (at least where I live) that we won't get around it in our lifetime and the best way to rid ourselves is to teach our children to have open minds...

A caveat:
Racism as individual prejudicial perception and treatment is in its death-throes (well, there's that new War on Terror driven hatred of "those A-rabs"). Rather, institutional and inter-institutional dynamics (that is, structured racism) create and reproduce most persisting racial inequities. Ideological color-blindness conceals such inequities, allowing them to persist.

But sure, teaching your kids to be open minded is a good thing...it's practically the best that one could do, but it's also important to teach them to scrutinize immediate appearances to reveal hidden processes. It will be only through the latter practice that contemporary racism will be addressed.

ebola
 
point(s) taken, you are very intelligent, thank you for sorting me out...Sorry I got kinda heated...
But I do think we should hold on to english as a standard language. Let me explain why I comment like I do on that argument. I'm down here and 10 years ago forms used to be nice and large print, now we have pages which are half spanish and half english... The mexicans are taking texas and the rest of the border states over slowly and we need to MAKE them learn english or we are gonna HAVE to learn spanish... Now, I was here first. I don't give a rats ass about speaking spanish... it's hard, I mean yeah it can be fun, but I cannot express myself in spanish! Since my little rants earlier, I have come to the conclusion I shall be civil. What is going to happen to the languages, what SHOULD happen? I think you ebola, or some other could maybe enlighten me, and I didn't really mean you when I said that picking apart stuff, your a mod on here, it's kinda your job...
And yes, I am anti-japanese, was raised that way, all the WWII family shit... you know... sorry slim... I was out of line and picked on you... I'm glad I came and talked about racism, I am becoming less of a racist and less regional by the post:)
 
I have to disagree with what you're saying about antizionism being linked with anti-semitism (though anti-Jewishness is a better term). I don't like the state of Israel, I don't like it's militant politics or how it handles foreign affairs. I don't like how it gets preferential treatement amongst middle-eastern nations (its the only one allowed to have nuclear weapons). And I don't like how the state of Israel has a very strong lobby in the U.S. (its our ally and is supposed to help us in themiddle east (which we shouldn't be in in the first place) and so we give it billions of dollars of aid every year. Its more of a parasitic than a symbiotic relationship).

As a matter of fact, I have been to Israel (though I am not Jewish) and I foundit to be an absolutely fascinating nation, however I noticed they way that Israel treated Arabs and I was disconcerted. I also noticed the militarized nature of the state, the border patrol stations when crossinginto Palestine was ridiculous. This is a police state.

The entire principle upon which Israel was founded is equally absurd; land was taken from a people that lived there for centuries, and given to the Jewish people as some sort of pology for the Holocaust. Really, the Palestinians have every right to hate Israel, and though I am against terrorism and militant Islam, I can't say that Israel is any better.

That being said, I have no problem with Jews, I especially find Orthodox of Hascidic Jews to be fascinating in terms of their depth of knowledge of Jewish Scripture and their devotiuon to their faith.


You don't have to agree. People DO use it as a front for anti-semitism. Not everybody, but some people. And I've been to Israel, too. I think it's a nice place. There were areas that had Syrian landmines still buried, and there were areas that were like I said, nice.

It's not a police state, it's war-torn. It's been war-torn for a thousand years.
 
Teh Texan said:
point(s) taken, you are very intelligent, thank you for sorting me out...Sorry I got kinda heated...

Thanks. I don't deserve it, but thanks. :)
However, it's pathological to fall into the dynamic where one person tells the other how to think, legitimized by expertise or whatever. I think that we should expose ourselves to a variety of ideas and critically assess them, perhaps coming up with our own in the process.

I can't legitimately claim that I have the right to "sort you out".

And I've seen far more vitriolic...and even racist insults than yours.

The mexicans are taking texas and the rest of the border states over slowly and we need to MAKE them learn english or we are gonna HAVE to learn spanish... Now, I was here first.

I disagree on several grounds.
1. For this to work, the validity of the current system of nation-states must be assumed. Otherwise, why should people speak their language of choice?
2. Given the US's cultural history and demographic trajectory, I doubt that you will be compelled to speak Spanish, particularly when engaging governmental bureaucracies. Given white privilege, conditions of segregation, and claims to objectivity that shape the policies of the state, English will remain prolific.
3. Depending on where you reside specifically, you probably weren't there first. Not long ago, Texas was part of 'New Spain' and then Mexico prior to its annexation by the US. This is not to mention the prior native presence.

Basically, I reject 'flag in the ground' logic. :)

What is going to happen to the languages, what SHOULD happen

A priori, each opinion is equally valid, worthy of equal consideration. I'm not here to tell people what is true or ethical. Besides the aforementioned, I can present political prescriptions, but from my own ethical standpoint.

As a critic of capitalism with anarchist sympathies, I look upon nation-states as illegitimate, intertwined with other venues of exploitation and domination. Thus, I believe that cross-border flows of people should be radically free, partially ameliorating the cross-national inequalities of wealth that we see.

I also think that culture is what we make of it, and we innovate mainly by creating hybrids born of meeting those different from ourselves, so I would oppose a national language.
 
Sometimes, working out on the farm I look across at a dark person working in another row as my skin burns from the sun, and think of how stupid a thing brownness is to hate someone over.
 
Alright, I hear ya...

Man that is some good stuff, but it sure is radical.
I enjoy some diversity, and I know i should do my own research, but earlier I wondered...
How does the U.S. immigration policy differ from other nations?
I'm sure our wildly exaggerated terrorism threat has slowed the process, but I figure we have about the same policy if not more accessible than other nations.
anyways, gotta go, got company.
Ok, I got a minute, I don't mean to say it's radical in a bad way, but you would like virtually open borders right? I think it could be a shock that the already weak American economy couldn't take at this moment, or perhaps ever.
Have you considered the economic as well as the social impact? It would surely be wild where I live, and i'm 1/4 chickasaw indian, but I cannot use that excuse as our ancestors were from Mississippi. But besides that I am sure that the competition for employment would surely make it hard on some friends, hopefully my college degree i'm almost finished with shall keep me afloat if that were to happen...
Ebola says: cross-border flows of people should be radically free, partially ameliorating the cross-national inequalities of wealth that we see
I like the part about being able to flow freely but you even say the cross national inequalities of wealth should be eliminated, and i really see that as wealth distribution. I oppose that for sure! I'm not wealthy, but I eat well, and drive a big truck. Would a fair medium be free flow, but definitely some immigration restrictions and a quota maybe? Ouch, sounds so unfree, but "withdrawl" from out current ways is gonna be nasty...
 
Last edited:
didnt read the whole thread but was going to post smth. like this:

2. Being different is not a bad thing. As a matter of fact, I find difference fascinating. We need to learn to acknowledge differences and appreciate what we could learn from each other, rather than attempt to coagulate into blocs.


differences can and should be celebrated.
 
SlimVictor, so is Japanese not the national language of Japan? French in France? Portuguese in Portugal? Why don't we just go ahead and guess what ancient cavemen were speaking...shit maybe even apes? I'm talking about TODAY. Sometimes you can just go with common sense without getting too intellectual to prove a point.
 
Last edited:
Jam,

Surely you can't mean that we all of us should stop using the word "we." Sometimes it's simply correct usage, no?

I tend to think racism will end simply by social mixing and a strong social norm against such thinking. I view it as in sharp decline.

Regarding the English as national language discussion,

I can understand both sides to this. On the one hand, current inhabitants of a nation or political entity have a legitimate interest in preserving certain traditions of that nation, and in fostering ground for easy communication and understanding between inhabitants. I also think it's in the interests of anyone living in the U.S. to learn English, and to the extent that language programs or schools might receive increased funding if English became "official," such a move might be a good thing. On the other hand, I think some of the consequences of putting language up for legislative vote might be unintended and/or negative.

In short, I don't think this question is answerable outside the specifics of what happens legally when we make English the "official" language.
 
SlimVictor, so is Japanese not the national language of Japan? French in France? Portuguese in Portugal? Why don't we just go ahead and guess what ancient cavemen were speaking...shit maybe even apes? I'm talking about TODAY. Sometimes you can just go with common sense without getting too intellectual to prove a point.

I think that you don't understand what an official or national language is.
It means a language that has a legal status under the law of the land.
It doesn't always mean that the language is the most widely spoken - for example, Maori is an official language in New Zealand, even though 95% of the population can't speak or understand it.
English has not been given any legal status in America, and it is therefore not the national or official language of the country, even though it is clearly the language of choice for governmental and judicial affairs, as well as the most convenient language to speak if you live in America.

As far as "cavemen", I have no idea what you are talking about, or how it relates to this discussion. Apes do not speak any language.

What you say about "common sense" is very tricky. What if your "common sense" doesn't match mine (which is true in this case)? Whose should we consider correct? If they don't match, should they even be called "common"?

Many, many languages are spoken in America. They are all worthy of respect. Some are spoken by a very small percentage of the people, but even these people, and their languages, are worthy of respect. The fact that so many languages are spoken is, to me, one of the coolest things about America.
People who pretend that "America is for English" are ignoring this diversity and not respecting the minority languages.

Note that I am not saying that Chinese or Thai or even Spanish should become official languages in America. I am simply saying that Americans speak more than just English.
 
I think that you don't understand what an official or national language is.
It means a language that has a legal status under the law of the land.
It doesn't always mean that the language is the most widely spoken - for example, Maori is an official language in New Zealand, even though 95% of the population can't speak or understand it.
English has not been given any legal status in America, and it is therefore not the national or official language of the country, even though it is clearly the language of choice for governmental and judicial affairs, as well as the most convenient language to speak if you live in America.

As far as "cavemen", I have no idea what you are talking about, or how it relates to this discussion. Apes do not speak any language.

What you say about "common sense" is very tricky. What if your "common sense" doesn't match mine (which is true in this case)? Whose should we consider correct? If they don't match, should they even be called "common"?




Many, many languages are spoken in America. They are all worthy of respect. Some are spoken by a very small percentage of the people, but even these people, and their languages, are worthy of respect. The fact that so many languages are spoken is, to me, one of the coolest things about America.
People who pretend that "America is for English" are ignoring this diversity and not respecting the minority languages.
Note that I am not saying that Chinese or Thai or even Spanish should become official languages in America. I am simply saying that Americans speak more than just English.

#1))Hahah c'mon. I don't know, what does the word common even mean anyway? Enough with the pscyhobabble seriously. I'm trying to understand your very libertarian views, attempting to relate, but you make it oh so very hard. It's not that complicated. People speak English in America. You move to America, attempt to learn it. It aides in the transition and helps immigrants bond with natives. It's that simple.

#2))Oh I respect them. Respect the country YOU LIVE in, and the people here inhabbiting it by attempting to speak the predominant language spoken. You moved here, remember? I didn't go recruit you to live here, it wasn't my idea. Shit, speak 15 different languages when you're at home or whatnot in order to retain your high level of culture. Just attempt to learn English.

EDIT: And why don't you go ahead and tell me what the "national" or "official" language of the US is...
 
Last edited:
As far as "cavemen", I have no idea what you are talking about, or how it relates to this discussion. Apes do not speak any language.

Remember how you mentioned the Native American tounges, and how those were the original "languages of America." But you're referring to events that are 233+ years old. That's why people change/evolve. Do the best with what you have now...which is having everyone on the same page language-wise.
 
Well said slim, it is true... I think there is an underlying fear us Texans and surely other Americans harbor that as minority populations increase in size, as well as the number of illegal aliens that our standard language which all our textbooks and family used has began to become less "official." Government forms are now nearly double the length as spanish is presented in full print in order to facilitate "their" language and needs. I find this as no problem at all, but notice that the welfare and food stamp offices have many more resources for foreign language speakers as the Tax Office! :( Oh well, just an observation. I find it hard to free my mind from seeing a non-english speaker as some sort of parasite, whether it be the lady in front of me in line who can't seem to get food stamps because she has no social security card(I had food stamps last semester, i sorta understood the conversation ,slim :) ) or whether it be a foreign exchange student, who my tuition funds, not so much the govt... But my eyes are opening thanks to some on this board...
 
Top