Philosophical Question about time and space(READ THIS) it is why acid is bad...

K

KeWlHaNdLuKe

Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 25, 2000
Messages
231
OK... I'm probably insane, but I'm about to ask a question that is going to make everyone's brain itch... Ok when you think about time, it is true that at any given moment there are an uncountable number of things that can happen. The kicker is that a single moment in time does not "take up" any time... In otherwords, it is like a point... dimensionless... And yet there is an infinity of possibilities that could happen... (Assuming that the Universe never ends...) OK Im gonna explain this visually later, but for now, go a little deeper with me... Has anyone else noticed the pattern that matter follows... An object is made up of molecules which are made up of elements which are made up of atoms which are made up of electrons, neutrons and Protons. All of these go down to quarks, and (in theory) get infinately smaller... Ok... The plot thickens... Objects are on continents which are on worlds which are in solar systems which are in galaxies which are in... You get the picture... Matter gets infinately bigger and smaller at the same time... It goes on infinately in both directions... OK time to make your brain itch some more... Now think about time... First we will think one dimensionally... Picture a 1D time line. We all know that it goes in the negative and positive directions infinately...( similar to matter, but that is not the half of it... It has another simularity... Remember we're still in 1D... Wait till I try to explain the really tricky part... Lets say you go from 0 to 1. you can divide it by 2, again and again forever... You can do this with (almost) any number no matter how small... Now we're getting to my "real" question... Can you have a dimensionless point that can be infinately divided... I think I need to explain this a little better (even though we're still in 1D) If you can take any amount of time and divide it by 2(or infinity for that matter) forever, why can't you take a single instance in time... Like if you froze it, and divide it by infinity forever... Now my question is about to go 3D, so if you aren't a math person you might as well get out the Advil... Lets go back to matter... OK... If time and Matter are simular to each other... (that's a big if) Try to picture the concept that I talked about in 3 dimensions... Im not even going to try to explain it... Well I'll try... Imagine a box. (Props to SpecialKNY here... I had thought of it before, but he thought of it independantly of me so I have to give him credit)) Inside of each box there is an infinity of boxes. Inside of each of those boxes, there is another infinity of boxes, and inside of each of those... You get the picture... Now try to picture a kind of tree with branches that connect all of the boxes... (Heres a little side comment. Remember that the box that we started at also has another infinate boxes inside it and connected to it... I just singled it out to simplify the picture) My question runs something like this. All of this together would be only one "infinity" yet ther are an infinate number of infinities... (Ouch) I understand this, but Im about to get back to my real question... How can there be an infinate number of boxes encompassed in an area that takes up zero volume (or space) If matter gets infinately smaller, this would have to be the case. I think that is my principle flaw... Matter can't get infinately smaller...(But it would be cool if it did because it would mean that there has to be a god...) Here's some other interesting food for thought... If matter gets infinately smaller, are our minds infinate? Is that what makes us alive? Is that why we have souls? Are our souls just the parts of our minds that take up zero space? How can there be such an organized pattern to life if the theory of entropy is true? Is the earth just some atom in a great big hamburger that someone is about to take a big bite of in some other world? ORRRRR??? Is it all connectec somehow... Is the hamburger simultaneously on our earth, and in some other earth that is about a million orders of magnitude bigger than ours? Is that why I can read your mind when I'm tripping??? I hope I didn't scare anyone... I am really not about sitting down and thinking but sometimes I just can't help it... I thought of this one time when I was looking at the stars out in the middle of a big cornfield in Texas... I don't think I will ever figure it out... Help me out if you can...
Peace out,
-K-Luv-
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"Oh God, do not remain quiet; Do not be silent and, Oh God do not be still. For, behold, Thine enemies make an uproar..." Psalm 83:1-2.
 
OH MY GOD!!!!! Cany I have some asprin now!! That Fucked me up!!
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)) I took some physics in High school and if that is the way you think, I think you need to teach Physics or something--cause you sound like my physics teacher.
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))) I think Ill go roll tonight and think about it
PLUR
Jay
 
K-luv we definatlly have to talk hehehe - I never got that far but i was on the way ... Now you filled me in on a few technical subjects that i was missing (i never studied physics just math) and Now i am on amazon.com looking for books on quantom (any suggestions ? ) somehow when we were tripping it all seemd so natural -> we didn't have the answer but we knew exactly what the question was - and I think that is what make acid beautifull -> some questions will never be solved - but as long as you know what the question is your life will be exciting in looking for the answer
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Next time we meet - I defiantlly am bringing Some papers and pen
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Now a question about matrix - which i know you love that movie - how come the humans (in the "Real" life) looked exactly the same they did in the "fake" world ? ) they could have created them any way they wanted bascially - they used that body only as batteries
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well except for the fact that they had to hire 2 players for every part and that it would make the movie confusing as hell - i didn't find another answer
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And now a quate just for you ..
"If at first the idea isn't absurd, then there is no hope for it" Albert Einstein
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Just K - Hugz Drugz and a dozen Roses
 
Interesting ideas, and post... but your thoughts certianly aren't unique.
first, a word about infinity. Infinity is not some set value... it's a mathematical "process" of getting very large, or very small. therefore, one infinity can, potentialy, contain an infinite number of infinities within it, and in each of those, another infinite number of infinities.
further, if you concider an infinity (a number line, for example... streaching on forever in both directions)... and you take some point, for the sake of simplisity, call it (arbitrarily) P. now, this point "P" has an infinite number of "space" or "values" or whatever it happens to be on either side. SO, this point, "P" is, by defenition, the center. This is true for ANY and ALL points "P" in any and every "infinity". This is where it starts to break down. Any "infinity" can be divided infinately, into an infinity of infinites within one infinity. Have I lost you?
If the universe is truly ifininite, (and I don't think it is) then the laws of thermodynamics are irrelevant, and entropy simply doesn't matter. Becasue the universe, being infinite, has an (you guessed it) inifinite ammount of energy, and matter. which can NEVER be reduced to total chaos... becasue, if yer right, then the matter in the universe can be reduced inifintiely smaller, never reaching it's "smallest"... as the laws of entropy dictate.
now, something I am not following is why your perceptual "inifinite universe" is indicative of a god... that just doesn't make sence to me. If the universe, and it's contents are in fact inifinite, sure we have some more things to fingure out... but that doesn't indicate, difinitively that there is a "god".
At any rate... on to your specific question... which I THINK I vaguely understand what yer trying to say...
"a dimentionless point which can be infinitely divided" well... as far as our perception of the universe... short answer? no. any given "point" in time doesn't truly exist...
break out the excedrin, or maybe the liquid 'cid, cuz this is a little fucked. The nature of time is utterly unknown to us. Concider a cube, an ordinary box. Now, it has 3 dimentions... right? length, width, height... Sure this is all well and good, but what about DURATION... in our universe, everything has a "duration" an "instantanious cube" simply would not exist in our perception of our universe... which, concevably brings us into the... *drum roll* FOURTH DIMENTION....
now... any point in time, call it, again "P" being an instant, in time, having "no dimentions" as it were... to our perceptions never truly exists. time, for us, flows... it is our PERCEPTION of time... things which go from past to future. Time never stops. If it did, however, (which it can't) everything would remain exactly the same as the instant BEFORE time stoped, and precicely how it would look the instant AFTER time began moving again. These two "instants" being exactly the same to us. (this point, "P" lies somewhere in the infinitiy between one instant, and the next.) therefore, it would seem, that any and all instants in time have an "infininite" space between them, as you amd I have both well established. However, this is where the defenition of "infinity" comes in handy. it's a process, of getting larger and larger, or in this case, smaller, and smaller. (the limit as the change in time gets closer and closer to zero) Welcome to calculus.
Breaking our universe down into "mathematics" poses some very interesting problems. The universe divides by zero ALL THE TIME... or at least something so close to zero, that is is, in effect zero... (the limit as some variable, x, approaches zero) When we do this, the percevable qualities of the universe break down, and become theoretical.
I hope I answered your question... but at the same time, I likely raised so many other ones that you are going to be pondering the makings, and workings of the universe for eons to come...
Interesting point though... Just becasue we can't explain it... some "god" had to be responcible... right? of course... the suns flys around the earth... must be a god in a flaming chariot. Its like that law in physics... who's name I can't remember... the better and more exactly you know a particles velocity, the less you know about it's exact possition. and Vice versa. I think you can figure the analogy out for yourself.
I'm going to stop here... realy, I am
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Who you are never realy changes... It's who you THINK you are that does.
 
read "a brief history of time" by stephen hawking... and it's "quantam" There are alot of books out there, but take it all with a grain of salt.
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Who you are never realy changes... It's who you THINK you are that does.
 
Books on quantum physics:
The God Particle - Leon Lederman
This ones a good start, although gets pretty technical at the end, but most books on the subject end up doing it
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Pretty much a history of quantum physics/mechanics.
I also liked "In search of Schrodinger's Cat" And "Schrodinger's Kittens and the Search for Reality" By John Gribbin
The first time I read about the two-slit experiment, it gave me the creeps
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Edit: PaRaDoX, I think you are referring to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle
[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 29 January 2000).]
 
And for tomorrow boys and girls we are going to discuss Einstein's theory of relativity followed by the cultural significance of black holes in our society.
I used to know them both, fuck if I can remember them anymore--damn drugs
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~DANK~
 
Paradox,
Thank you very much for your intellegent reply... I have never read any books on Quantum physics, but I do understand a lot about Mathematics... However, my major dosn't delve into a whole lot of theory... Engineering takes a more practical approach to math, which i'm sure you already know... However the ideas fascinate me... I assure you that I oversimplified a lot of things so that everyone could form a kind of mental picture if you will... I've already thought of all of the things that you posted, and I still think it all stinks... I refuse to believe that there is anything I can't figure out if I think about it long enough... Believe it or not, I was 11 when I came up with the whole "Question" However, as I get older, and learn more about the way things "are," I just get more and more confused... As far as the issue with god goes(notice it isn't capitalized) That goes back to the question of why can I read your mind??? I hate to say it, but there are things that we can't explain, but in order to have any kind of basis to form any kind of theories, we have to take a few things on "faith." Here's a question... What are vibes??? I'm not overly religious, but I have noticed that I can walk into a room with maybe 100 people, and I can feel the emotions of every person based on their proximity to me... Some people's "vibe is stronger than others... I have a friend back in Texas who has a vibe of pure unadulterated happiness that has about a 50 foot radius... It is very very freaky... When I take him out, we inevitably draw a crowd... So many times people ask me "What is he on???" and he will be totally sober... The essence is very very real, and if you really feel for it, you will feel it... I hate to insult your intelligence because I'm sure that you have picked up on this too... I know it is a stretch, But I really want to believe that all of this somehow goes back to the way we are all somehow connected... I can't explain it... There is no mathematical model for it, but it is very powerful, and it can be used in very good ways, and very bad ways... I think that everyone "has it," because of the way that people migrate toward my friend, and because of other countless times that I have noticed it happening... OK this is for all of you reading this who have no idea what I am talking about... I assure you that I am the most kind hearted, good intentioned person that you will ever meet... I've found that when I tell people these things, they get scared or freaked out... I just want you to know that my goal in life is to make as many people happy as possible... I read people yes, but I truly use it to try and find the one thing that will make the people that I am interacting with truly happy... It is a very very powerful thing... If you are more interested in my philosophy on life, read my post titled "WhAt MaKeS YoU HaPpY?" Sorry about that Paradox... I just really don't want to scare anyone, but I'm really confused about that... There are vibes, and what causes them??? Is it supernatural? Is it something that I percieve on my own, or is it just a combination of very good perception skills, or lots of experience with emotions, and the different facial expressions that express them? (Im a poker Player...) Please don't think I am revelling in my own intelect, or in my abilities... I just want answers, and I would really appreciate anything you have to add...
PLUR...
-K-Luv-
 
specialkny--as for the matrix I beleive that the machines were smarter than you or I may have beleived, they monitored the interactions and relationships of the people in the matrix and then when a conception supposedly took place in the matrix, the machines mated those two individuals in real life as well, thus keeping a balance with the number of real uhmans annd humans in the matrix, then knowing that the people would grow suspicious if their offspring looked different from their parents traits so they thn examined the amino groupings in the new child that was just created in the real world and place the projection of what this child will look lkike in the future on the newborn's young impressionable mind and as it grows it is only following the set of standards that is already set forth for it to follow. Now compare this to real life and see how soceity is exactly the same as the machines because it forms many young impressionable minds into exactly what it wants them to be. and only a select few are abl e to break though this barrier and become exactly who we want to be.
The matrix does exist, but only because we as a soceity force it upon ourselves
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~DANK~
[This message has been edited by DANK (edited 29 January 2000).]
 
O.k - metrix - it started somewhere - so they could have created the hole human race as a hole diffrent thing .. it's like in a dream - ever noticed how in dreams you never see yourself - i don't know anyone who can dream on the way he looks - you don't modify yourself .. well maybe i'm wrong - this is complitely out of my head based on nothing
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so there isn't really anyhting to compare to if they wanted their parent to look a certain way they could have created it - cause by the movie the baby doesn't has real memory he is born into the matrix
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Plur Now and Forever - SpecialK
"If at first the idea isn't absurd, then there is no hope for it". -Albert Einstein
 
Kewl: sorry about that "god" shot... it was a little over the top. But yes, I utterly understand what you are saying about "vibe" and empathy. This is where I get a bit crazy sounding, BUT... I think that is a cultivateable skill, for some, and one that others are just born with. I can't explain it either... I guess I am a bit "new age" but to take your empathy, and radius thing a step further... and without scientific explanation (which I don't realy have) I believe, and honestly "see" people's "energy field" or "aura" or "Qi" (pronounced chi). Not only that, but it is a palpable force... a manipulateable force. I also do believe in a connection between people... That I also can't explain. I can also feel "rivers" of energy flowing beneath the earth (lay lines)... I have often seen "inside" anothers mind... sure, I sound like a wack job... but I realy do. Maybe I'm just crazy... we all walk that line between intelegence and insanity... I usualy have a foot on each side of the line...
I too had thoughts like that regardeing the nature of the universe at a young age. Also, if these things interest you, you should concider exploring philosophy...
at any rate... good post. I thouroughly enjoyed it... =)
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Who you are never realy changes... It's who you THINK you are that does.
 
Paradox,
I'll have to admit that initially I was pretty offended by your post... In fact (to be honest, I still kind of resent the fact that you still seem to consider me to be an inferior...) That is all inconsequential though because what we think of each other really dosn't matter because I am genuinely happy that I have found someone that truly enjoys "thinking about thinking" I would assume that you are not as old as you make out to be because I presume that you made the common assumption that I was about 18, and still wandering around the world thinking about things with no purpose in mind... In reality, I am quite the opposite... I am what many would call a "raver," but I am not what you think I am. I am at a very prestigious school, and I have a very good idea of what I want out of life. I did consider a degree in Philosophy, but the green monster took over my priorities, and I decided that I would rather spend these 4 years of my life setting myself up for success. I am an Aerospace Engineering student, but I do not limit myself to the stipulations of a title so shallow as a "major." I hope you can realize that "people" are not as dumb as you think that they are... I used to think that... I used to think that the general mass of the population had very little to offer me, but as I matured, I realized that everyone has something to offer... Please don't take this in the wrong way, but if you go back and read your initial posting, you will see that the tone that you used was very insulting, and almost overbearing... My initial reaction was to come back at you with personal insults about spelling and whatnot, but I realized that this would be very shallow and immature, I realize that I am being a slight bit hypocrytical in my tone, but I assure you that this is not my intention... I would really like to share with you what I have learned... Even the dumbest e-tard has little revelations of wisdom that one can learn from... Social skills are very complicated, and I don't think that I will ever know exactly how to deal with every person I ever meet...(and this is how it should be,) however, I see the same patterns that you see in life, and I hope that you are headed in the same direction as me in that we can realize that no matter how smart we are, there are always people who are smarter than us... I maxed all of the IQ tests, and I meet people who are smarter than me every day... You just have to keep your eyes open... Please don't take this in the wrong way... I loved all of your insights, but I'll have to admit that your tone offended me a little... I didn't plan on saying anything about it, but isn't that what this whole thing is about??? Telling people how you feel??? I would love to have a long conversation about life with you, because I'm sure that there are many things that you could teach me, but I was initially offended, and that biased all of the good things that you said... I guess what i'm trying to say is that you would be a lot more effective if you used a little more tact... I really enjoyed your post, and I'm glad that there are more people like me out there... Enjoy your intelect, and use it in the right way, and you will make yourself and others happy for the rest of your life... Thanks for the posts,
Plur,
Much Love,
Caleb.
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"The DJ saved My life... Cause I was sittin there bored to death... and in... Just one breath he said ya gottagetout. ya gottagetup, ya gottagetdown girl..."
 
Wow, math and science never seemed so relevant on a human level. Maybe if I had done drugs in high school I'd have given a shit about those subjects and understand them more.
Anyways, I can't grasp the infinity stuff enough to comment on it but let me think it over for a few years. Or do some more drugs or something.
I think vibes are purely mental. If anyone saw this past week's episode of _Friends_ I'm thinking of Rachel's boss' "reading" her relationship with Ralph Lauren. Anyway, I find that I can get really paranoid that someone doesn't like me when they're actually just busy or distracted or something. And the other way around.
 
OK...Let me first say that i love u guys and the shit that comes out of ur brains...Heres a little out of mine...
Physics...
Kewl...i have often thought about what ur point theories about infinety dividing and expanding..sober and wrecked...and i cant come up with an answer...Heres a cool little thing i learned in physics
BLACK HOLES
yes...that crazy phenomenon we know as black holes are actually giant masses, larger than our sun, compressed into an extremyl small volume known as a singluar. Now this little particle has the same gravitational pull as it did as a giant mass so it begins to pull everything into itself. Even light that is passing pwerpendicularly to it will bend and be sucked in. Now lets say by some miracle you are sucked into a black hole and u dont die instantly. Now your are looking out back towards our Universe.(Heres the kicker. time is NOT a theory. I dont have extemsive knowledge on the subject but gravity, speed , and time are all directly related.)Ad the amount of gravity you experience becomes larger and larger(Granted you would be dead by now),TIME WOULD SLOW DOWN FOR YOU. As you would experience what felt like a minute, 10 billion year would go by. You would see entire galaxies form, exist and the destroy themselves!!!! Eventually u would near the center and the gravitational field would vary so gretaly from once inch to the next that u would be stretched and killed.hey but u made it that far so whats to say that u wouldnt make it through. so lets say you did...Whats on hte other side is still a mystery. Does the immense gravity rip a whole in time itself( so called wormholes???)...and if so...where does it go?????????????I LOVE THIS SHIT
Oh and as for God. Im not taking a stand on the subject. There has to be something greater than this world. Something created the first matter.
Our God is the judeo-Christian personification of the ideal of goodness. If you stusy greek philosphersa and the idea of the world of the forms. They arrived at the idea of a ideal or perfection of goodness. They did not go as far as to make an entity out of it as we have.
 
i wont enter into this one other than to say:
acid and quantum physics go together like beer and pretzels... perfectly
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.... he who makes a beast of himself, rids himself of the pain of being a man...
 
Well...after reading Deep's post about off-topic posts, I'm
reluctant to post my thoughts, in the name of respect, but I'll
take a chance and give it a shot. Here's my take on your
attempted brainteaser.
1.) No subatomic particles have been positively identified
that are smaller than quarks. What theory is this of yours that
says--theoretically--than they can be infinitely divided?
I haven't seen or heard of it. Physicists like playing with
scenarios like this, but they're really just killing time until
the next Einstein comes around. Speaking of theories...you know,
theoretically you could spontaneously turn into a Coke
can, or be transported to Klingon space. Really!
2.) On a similar note, you say things get infinitely bigger as
well. This isn't the case though, AS WE KNOW IT. The universe
may be infinite in extent, but that's that. There's no proof
of "bigger" or "smaller" universes out there. So there goes one
avenue of infinite regression.
3.) Size is a meaningless, utterly relative concept. Were you
"small" enough, a proton could be as "big" as the Earth. Out
goes that distinction.
4.) There's no proof yet that time even exists. Many
physicists doubt that it does, or has true direction.
So much for time.
5.) You spend a lot of time talking about the infinite division
of dimensionless points. Let's be reasonable here. A point is
a mathematical abstraction. It's dimensionless. It doesn't exist.
If it doesn't exist, then you can't divide it up infinitely in the
first place. I haven't even taken into account that infinity
itself is an abstraction with no apparent reality. This is a
philosophical question, but you try to make it relevant to the
"real" universe, which will just bog you down.
6.) Being purely speculative, matter *can* be made of infinitely
small components. It would just mean that matter is nothingness,
albeit structured. If you think that this is impossible because
your senses tell you that certain things exist...well, every
philosopher knows that your senses are totally fallible, and can
provide no real information about anything.
7.) I'll give you one solid answer to your questions at the end.
You wonder how life can be structured in the face of entropy.
The sole reason for this is because life has outside energy
sources that it can use to stave off entropy. For us, this source
is the Sun. It takes energy to fight entropy, and we have plenty
of it, for now.
 
Well...after reading Deep's post about off-topic posts, I'm
reluctant to post my thoughts, in the name of respect, but I'll
take a chance and give it a shot. Here's my take on your
attempted brainteaser.
1.) No subatomic particles have been positively identified
that are smaller than quarks. What theory is this of yours that
says--theoretically--than they can be infinitely divided?
I haven't seen or heard of it. Physicists like playing with
scenarios like this, but they're really just killing time until
the next Einstein comes around. Speaking of theories...you know,
theoretically you could spontaneously turn into a Coke
can, or be transported to Klingon space. Really!
2.) On a similar note, you say things get infinitely bigger as
well. This isn't the case though, AS WE KNOW IT. The universe
may be infinite in extent, but that's that. There's no proof
of "bigger" or "smaller" universes out there. So there goes one
avenue of infinite regression.
3.) Size is a meaningless, utterly relative concept. Were you
"small" enough, a proton could be as "big" as the Earth. Out
goes that distinction.
4.) There's no proof yet that time even exists. Many
physicists doubt that it does, or has true direction.
So much for time.
5.) You spend a lot of time talking about the infinite division
of dimensionless points. Let's be reasonable here. A point is
a mathematical abstraction. It's dimensionless. It doesn't exist.
If it doesn't exist, then you can't divide it up infinitely in the
first place. I haven't even taken into account that infinity
itself is an abstraction with no apparent reality. This is a
philosophical question, but you try to make it relevant to the
"real" universe, which will just bog you down.
6.) Being purely speculative, matter *can* be made of infinitely
small components. It would just mean that matter is nothingness,
albeit structured. If you think that this is impossible because
your senses tell you that certain things exist...well, every
philosopher knows that your senses are totally fallible, and can
provide no real information about anything.
7.) I'll give you one solid answer to your questions at the end.
You wonder how life can be structured in the face of entropy.
The sole reason for this is because life has outside energy
sources that it can use to stave off entropy. For us, this source
is the Sun. It takes energy to fight entropy, and we have plenty
of it, for now.
 
Kewl:
I wrote this huge self absorbed excuse ridden apology post, and upon re-reading it, it was a pile of crap.
Suffice it to say that my comments were not intended in the manner in which they may have been recieved, they were intended as jests, but I understand the confusion.
I realy did aprecite the post. It made me stop and think, and explain things well enough to myself, that I could express them to others.
My predjudices, and pre-conceptions of people are totaly un-warrented. For that I also apologise.
in short, the cullmination of any other comments that I might make is this, I'm sorry if I offended you, I had no intention. (hmm, I'm starting to understand why I have a reputation for being a snotty bitch)
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Who you are never realy changes... It's who you THINK you are that does.
 
Wow, I just want to thank EVERYONE for their wonderful posts... This wasn't meant to prove anything, or to even educate anyone... I just wanted to stimulate a little thought... I realize that almost all of the stuff that we talked about is mostly BS founded on unprovable theories, as Belisaurius so eloquently stated, but I really just wanted to tickle everyone's brains... It's kinda fun to think about... At least I think so... The root of my question is really in my post about vibes... I've always thought I was alone in that, but I have seen that empathy is a widespread skill that everyone should try out... Anywayz, I loved all of your replies, and I hope to see all of you at the next party that I go to...
PLUR,
Caleb.
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"The DJ saved My life... Cause I was sittin there bored to death... and in... Just one breath he said ya gottagetout. ya gottagetup, ya gottagetdown girl..."
 
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