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crystal/'oily' meth - odd reacation?... question for a genuine interest

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boogersugar

Bluelighter
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Jan 29, 2008
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hi,

I'll make this as simple as i possibly can (state only what i know as fact in what i have observed, untainted by unnecessary novice speculation). I am not a chemist or pharmacologist, but am pursuing a tertiary degree narrowing to a specialization in neuropharmacology - outlining my inherent interest in pharmacology (if that counts for anything)

Life story aside, I would greatly appreciate an educated opinion on the following.. as i know that a post in 'basic drug discussion' will likely end up in a 50-100 post pissing contest culminating in arguments with little or no relation to the original topic.

I'm sure there is a simple explanation for the following, and any time taken to provide me with this would be greatly appreciated...


original material in question - 3 grams meth (clear, crystaline and quite oily - such that it seemed to seep through the plastic bag it was contained in).

1 gram was separated and put into clean bag, and still remains unchanged (control).

other 2 grams was separated into smaller amounts using a 'tainted' butter knife (the same knife for all manipulation).

~5 mins after 'tainted' knife was introduced to meth, discoloration occured - turning yellowy all over, with very obvious focal points of color emergence (bright red). This reaction took place very quickly and continued over the next 30-45 mins, extremely obvious to naked eye (I did not observe peak or end of reaction).

When material was left alone (ie not physically manipulated at all) the focal points of red discoloration (red , expanding spots) re-appeared. - approx 30 mins into discoloration i observed that that oily/wet nature of the original product was no longer evident. - leading me to believe that whatever reaction was taking place was with the oily content of the bag rather than crystaline.

Knife appeared clean, was not obviously dirty. I have concluded that the knife had a smear of something fatty on it. Either pate or butter (definitely something oily).

I conducted a few simple tests to confirm hypothesis...

*all using 'untainted' clear material from separated 'clean' gram.

1 - small blob (~ .01g which consisted, to the best of my determination, of approx equal crystaline and oily material).

deliberate contact with a small (smear) of butter caused obvious discoloration, consistent with previously observed larger amounts. But failed to display any obvious focal point of discoloration - simply, i believe, due to the lack of surface area and observation being by naked eye.

2 - equal blob mixed with 2-3 ml water. *'clean' untainted meth appears to dilute extremely well in room temp water with no undiluted 'cutter' etc evident, nor oily upper layer which might be expected given the oily nature of the original product.

- smeared knife introduced to water-meth solvent, mixed gently over 3-5mins. Caused subtle, yet noticeable discoloration, approx consistent with the ratio of solute to solvent (meth to water).


the ~3ml solvent developed smell which i identified as iodine. the smell strength produced was identical to 200ml water with one drop of 'betadine' [10% providone iodine equiv. to 1% w/v available iodine]. unmistakably that of iodine (or at least betadine, the purest form of idione at my disposal - *note, i have smelled iodine in lab controlled environments, and believe this to have little or no apparent difference.

same results with distilled water.

no reaction observed with a confirmed clean knife.

'tainted' meth, when heated with intention of smoking 'meth vapour' produced a definite smoke with black residue left behind. Whereas clear, 'untainted' meth, heated to smokeless vapour leaving behind little or no colored residue - suggesting to me that the properties of the meth had changed considerably.



From what little applicable knowledge i am able to draw on, i made the following observations and 'conclusions'...


- reaction occured with introduction of oily substance, supported by 2 further, more controlled experiments.
->furthermore, reaction seemed to occur primarily with the oily/wet substance rather than crystalline, as the nature of entire original product lost it's wet/oily properties in conjunction with apparent reaction.

- some form of iodine is produced... comparative visual and smell tests make this, in my opinion, unquestionable.

- level of visible reaction did increase relative to addition of the oily substance in question. Rather, it seemed the introduction of oily substance served as a catalyst. [this is a highly uneducated observation].


OK. I'm sure i've overcomplicated everything by trying to be as concise as possible, and demonstrate little or no knowledge of scientific procedure etc etc.




********
Identifying the presence of iodine with little more than water and betadine gave the small (and embarrassingly basic) thrill of scientific deduction that i both miss and yearn form in future studies. Just looking for the why's and what's that only someone of higher knowledge could provide.
->i am interested in the chemistry of far more than illicit drugs.. i just happened to observe something interesting and unexplainable in the properties of meth (unfortunate). I am not interested in the production of meth and am not trying to steer an indirect question assist me as such. Just a recreational user that is genuinely interested in something that most people couldn't care less about - what we are really ingesting

Please do not move this to basic drug discussion moderators, as this is a one-off question to which i hope for anything but a 'basic' answer (however brief it may be).



thanks to any genuine interest in advance
 
I'm fairly certain you aren't dealing with any iodine with povidone in it. It has a tendancy to "gum up" when one attempts to make iodine crystals for the sake of creating hydroidic acid.

Now, without actually being there and watching these reactions to know more variables that may (or may not) have been missed, I'd be willing to bet the following:

* Most likely, when the hydroiodic acid was being seperated from the methamphetamine, the filtration was poor and inadequate. It's common in smaller scale laboratories.

Now, when smoking:

*What type of heat source?
*What type of smoking device was used?
*Was there any noticeable change in taste?
*Was there any noticeable change in melting time of product or did it just immediately seem to burn?
*Was the vapor of the "oily" substance tolerable or no?

Lastly, before I leave you with this post and hope it was of some use to you:

What types of bags did you have? Where they clear or colored? Iodine tends to sublime with sunlight. It's why tincture of iodine does not come in clear bottles. Did you do leave the "oily / dirty" meth in direct sunlight at all?

Oh, before I forget, was the knife metallic or plastic? Did you attempt to try your tests / can you with both and compare results?
 
heat source normal lighter. Smoked by friends as usual. I have come across lots of diff. Kinds of meth but never observed what I'm describing. Also, as far as effects go from oral consumption and smoking it is clean, strong and long lasting - obviously before the tainting occurs.

It is extremely fresh. No sunlight no heat. Bags are clear plastic as used many times. So variables are few... This is something we have never seen before yet under exact conditions as any other time.

I agree not dealing with providone iodine, simply comparing smell to nearest thing to iodine I have, as I immediately identified smell. So tincture iodine was brought out simply to confirm smell.

Meth became completely unsmokeable after reaction began. Melted very slightly before burning. But very very slightly. The smoke produced was smoke and no longer vapor. Very caustic and very obviously not the original product. Obvious like inhaling burnt plastic - bad.

Smoking implement clean Pyrex.

Remember 1g remains in clear smokeable form still.. Only variable is I used a well cleaned knife (ISO-propyl alcohol spray and wipe even).
 
Do you have the knowledge to perform a dual solvent recrystalization and how to use them when dealing with methamphetamine and determining?

I'm sorry if you do, you seem educated, but you did mention you have little knowledge of methamphetamine and it's properties, so just making sure.

I'd really be curious as to what would happen if:

Dual solvent recrystalization on "unreacted" meth
Dual solvent recrystalization on "reacted" met

Amount of product for both before recrystalization
Amount of product for both after recrystalization

Would be interesting to note any/all abnormalities on any of the recrystalization and compare the amount differences between the two.

As you may know, even though you *should* lose some amount, it won't be anything you want to be smoking anyway.

You've, actually, gotten me quite intrigued. I look forward to the next response.

I'd be interested in seeing the product before and after the reactions. I'm not even going to ask you to post those as you may feel uncomfortable doing so, but if you'd be so inclined, it might help me a bit to further in giving more insight. Keep all photos anonymous, please.
 
Unfortunately i do not have the means or knowledge to perform any tests. I am entering my degree next year. At present i have only secondary level chemistry under my belt.

Ideally i would have undertaken a great deal of self teaching and experimentation in the interim. But, as Australian law stands, i can't even order in a decent chemistry set from America, let alone find one in any store. Pre cursor chemicals and pyrex implements are quite literally illegal. I can get fined heavily simply for having the few pyrex test tubes and beakers that i do!

As far as before and after shots, i would be more than happy to show a couple anonymously provided i'm not breaking any BL rules. I haven't done it before.

I have a before shot (being the untanted meth i still have personally), but not the rest - and am reluctant to change mine. However, i do have a water mixed bag of the tainted which should show the discolouration quite well. Will have to do that later though.


this may sound completely ridiculous, but nevertheless...

is there any way a reaction between hydriodic acid and a lipid could occur such that the HI loses it's H atom in some way to the lipid, leaving iodine?

perhaps a similar chemical reaction has been observed in an example quite separate from meth?

Damn, i don't even have a PH tester... how sad.
 
sounds like you got some meth with solvent not totally evaporated. Stick it out to dry.
 
Thanks Galan, i'd suspected as much. The meth is extremely strong, 1 point (oral), couple smokes has carried me for over 12 hrs now. The reason for this thread was to figure out exactly what i'm seeing... purely out of curiosity.

So here is where i'm at with the reaction...

i'm almost certain now that the reaction i'm seeing is hydriodic acid reacting with oxygen. However, opening the bag to air does not cause this.. which suggests that HI is not present in the orignal product (or certainly not in the amounts necessary to cause any visible reaction).
-->so, next guess - something on the end of the 'tainted' knife brought about the presence of HI, which then reacted with available oxygen to leave red iodine throughout.

Anyone care to fill in some gaps with some solid chemistry?
 
oh, also... i'm not sure if i mentioned this, but when introducing a fat to recreate the reaction i used a minute smear of butter, which as we all know contains a lot of other things, most importantly - salt?
 
I suspect that this is related to the kries test, where somewhat rancid fat is reacted with hydrochloric acid and phlorglucinol to give a red colouration, it used to be a test for rancid fat but is not very accurate, phlorglucinol can be replaced with a lot of other phenolic compounds an the test still makes colour.

the methamphetamine probably contains free hydrochloric acid and probably some other impurities which react with the ketones and aldehydes in butter to give the coloration. it may also contain hydroiodic acid as the hydro iodide salt, though this is easy to find using starch and hydrogen peroxide, it makes a pronounced blue black colour.

alternatively the dye in the butter is acting as an indicator.
it is impossible to say what might be present, though it is almost guaranteed to contain some amounts of highly toxic materials.
if it is badly made using the hydroiodic reduction of ephedrine or pseudo ephedrine it possibly also contains the highly dangerous para iodo methamephetamine, highly toxic 1-methyl 2-phenyl aziridine as well a host of other toxic and dangerous impurities.

If it is badly made using birch reduction then it contains over reduced amino propyl cyclohexadienes and dimers of unknown toxicity.

The US is now unwittingly outsourcing methamphetamine manufacture from trailer park cooks to the mexicans who tend to use the cleaner catalytic hydrogenation methods.
 
thanks vecktor, gives me a bit to digest.

I'm pretty satisfied with what i have heard and researched, and have a close enough idea of what is happening to put the issue to rest for myself.

However.. I can say with absolute certainty that the red colouration is iodine.

neway, thanks for replies everyone.
 

Is this how it should look after recrystalization and acetone wash? While drying?
 
Yeah that definitely just sounds like unfinished product, someone got lazy or didn't know what the fuck they were doing. Just try drying it
 
this thread was from 2008, pls make a new thread rather than bump one from almost 10 years ago
 
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