Completed [GBR] Long-term effects of ketamine use

On another note K cured me of a pretty serious mental disturbance. About 5 years ago I'd been caning the pills and toking a lot of skunk. One day I sat down , had a spliff and had a full blown dissociative experience completely out of the blue. I spent the next 2 years wondering around like I was on K, occasionally believing I was dead 8) seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalisation

After a few months gotr diagnosed with derealisation disorder. The main problem is its an anxiety disorder with positive feedback loop. I feared the dissociation and that fear increased it. Started to have trouble leaving house etc. K taught me theres nothing to be scared off in the dissociative experience.

I'm fairly sure lamatrogine was just an alzheimers drug until people discovered the fact it had some activity at the NMDA receptor. I remember thinking that it might help with the dissociation having read it could block dissociative drugs, but the psych tlooked at me as if was stupid and said it wasn't a drug used to treat mental illness (this is 5 years ago!).

Then Mount Sinai centre for the study of dissociation started testing it on their Dp'ed patients. Now its being used with suprising success as an 'atypical' to treat certain mental illnesses, especially bipolar and depersonalisation . So perhaps there is a bit of truth in this glutamate hypothess. Hell, we've had dmt hypothesis and I think its all a bit more complex than the dopamine hypothesis. The king is dead long live the king!
 
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specialspack said:
I know pulling numbers out of the air is very unscientific - but do you think there could be significant effects from dosing small amounts once daily (eg couple of lines)?

I understand if you think you can't comment.

I couldn't really comment because my opinion would be totally uninformed. I could speculate that using any drug on a daily basis for a prolonged period may lead to a significant change in those functions it acts upon, but that would just be my opinion.
 
I used ketamine once or twice a week for 3 years or so. Haven't touched it for about 2 years now. I don't think it had any effect on me physically or mentally when I was doing it, or afterwards. Only time will tell 8(

It was just bloody good fun!

Btw, I also live near London :)
 
specialspack said:
(And PLEASE people, if he expresses an overly negative opinion of ketamine, don't start flaming him, ok?)

Seems to me from what I've read that he's a completely logical open minded researcher, which can only be beneficial to the users of ket long term.







zophen
 
Ismene said:
What is a "schizophrenia type feeling" tho special? I've got a very close friend who is schizophrenic and the way he describes schizophrenia is about as far from any drug experience as it's possible to get.

Well, if you want me to go into details...

As I understand it, acute schizophrenia could be thought of as a breakdown in subject/object distinctions, with a leaning towards the "other". That is, parts of oneself start to become identified as not-self, but other. This could be contrasted with typical psychedelic ego-loss experience, where the distinction is shifted in the other way - so that "other" (ie the rest of the world) becomes "self". Which is where one gets these feelings of "oceanic boundlessness", the feeling of being "one with everything" or becoming god etc etc.

As an aside, some theorise that autism is also another kind of shift towards self, where what is considered "other" in an average mental state is not ascribed (by the autistic) the things we commonly ascribe to them - like emotions, rights, etc. Basically it is a failure to recognise other beings as being like oneself.

So... goning back to the ketamine experiences. Commonly, for me, ketamine produces intense states of oceanic boundlessness, merging of self into the greater hole (sic), being joined or connected to other beings, objects etc.

On two occasions, I have had the rather unnerving experience of what appear to be elements of the othering of self, what I previously described as schizophrenic type feelings. I'm sure everyone has had this a bit - on re-entry, being convinced your hand is not your own, that type of thing.

This was more serious - the 2nd occasion involved my splitting into two distinct halfs, with my sense of self and point of view shifting between them. This was deeply confusing and a little frightening - it really felt as if I had no control over what the other half of "me" was thinking or planning. The first occasion was something similar, but with a more broad spread shattering, rather than two distinct points. In both instances I was confused and frightened of my friends around me, not being able to distinguish them from possibly unpleasent fractions of my own psyche. That would never normally happen to me on k.
 
Although Ismene I'd be interested to hear how your friend describes his symptoms and why they seem so incomparable to a drug experience.

You are of course right that early ideas about psychomimetism wrt psychedelics were abandoned in the 70s, principly because the LSD experience was so different to that of schizophrenics. But there is a resurgence in interest in psychomimosis with ketamine, and Huw explained in his second post why - some similar symptoms, and similar neurochemical elements.
 
I think mainly K helped me break out of the feedback loop that dissociation feeds on. Its a type of panic disorder. Some people would develop aversions to situations which trigger panic attacks, hence agrophobia etc. With dp and dr, people fear dissociation, in turn that anxiety creates dissociation. The best way of getting over panic disorders is through 'exposure therapy'. By having a full-on dissociative experience on K you gradually stop fearing dissociation and the feedback mechanism gets broken. Oh yeah and I think you meant exarcerbate MrMoss, although exasperated is probably an equally valid term when it comes to MDMA abuse! =D
 
One thing where ketamine seems to have a really positive influence is people who have an out of proportion fear of dying. A certain amount of fear of dying is, of course, a very healthy thing, but some people let it get way out of proportion to the point that it exerts an influence on every aspect of their life. My first few experiences with ketamine were remarkably similar in a lot of ways to the NDE I had when I last my hand when I was 13; up until that point (from about age 9-13) I was terrified of death and what it entailed, but after nearly going all the way, I became a lot more at peace over the fact that it has to happen. I know that's what Karl Jansen was using ketamine for (treating people with a crippling fear of death), when he was carrying out sessions of 'ketamine therapy'.
 
fastandbulbous said:
One thing where ketamine seems to have a really positive influence is people who have an out of proportion fear of dying.

I think I would agree. I had a huge fear of death, and it still is quite bad if I'm honest. But I've purposely used K to the point where I get the NDE in a way of coming face to face with it. Kind of getting used to it before it happens. It has actually helped me, tho that's not why I originally got into it.

I've also been thinking about Ketamine in terms of it's medical uses recently. I don't know whether this is a well known fact or not, but does anyone think that when people talk about "walking towards the light" during surgery that they were actually in a K-hole?. You don't really hear people talk about that kind of thing these days and I was thinking it's probably because they don't use Ketamine so much on humans anymore. Just a thought :\
 
I used to be much more scared of seath than I am now (still frightens me though)

I'm not a religious chap so the idea of ceasing to exist, nothingness, kind of gets me down.

but on the plus side I won't know that I don't exist as I don't exist, if you follow me.

I still think that the religious idea of hell would be better than not existing.

ah well, k is good for nothingness that's why I like it. Its kind of like a fear of the unknown, or not so unknown thanks to k.
 
Although Ismene I'd be interested to hear how your friend describes his symptoms and why they seem so incomparable to a drug experience.


His schizophrenia experience are always deeply unpleasant and terrifying. Never had a single positive experience or feeling from it in his life. It's pure hell every single time. Which is pretty different to most drug users.

The other major difference is when you're on acid or K you always know you've taken a drug, whereas with schizophrenia it's thought to be a real experience.
 
Ismene said:
Although Ismene I'd be interested to hear how your friend describes his symptoms and why they seem so incomparable to a drug experience.


His schizophrenia experience are always deeply unpleasant and terrifying. Never had a single positive experience or feeling from it in his life. It's pure hell every single time. Which is pretty different to most drug users.

The other major difference is when you're on acid or K you always know you've taken a drug, whereas with schizophrenia it's thought to be a real experience.

Yes, quite - although sometimes with certain drugs (ketamine and salvia principly), the nature of the experience can really make it feel like it is a real experience. I'm sure most people have had the feeling (usually during your first few proper k holes) that you have been so dissociated as to make all of consensus reality appear as nothing but a dream, and it can feel that you're permanently changed and have no idea whether or not you come back to normal.

Ketamine does often feel (whilst under the influence, that it is in some sense a "real" experience.

The memory that you have taken a drug becomes totally meaningless when you are a shifting, shattered ego wired directly into the metaphysical stuff of the universe.

Maybe I'm not explaining this very well... do you get what I'm trying to say?
 
Medi57 said:
I still think that the religious idea of hell would be better than not existing.

you'll never not exist. In scientific terms, you could argue that every movement of energy in the universe occured in order for a tiny amount of matter to condense and make you conscious.

And even when you die, and your matter is absorbed back into the fabric of reality, there will never be a moment when that energy ceases to exist- and every conscious decision you made will have consequences beyond your comprehension!

K and nangs is a great combination.
 
andythetwig said:
you'll never not exist. In scientific terms, you could argue that every movement of energy in the universe occured in order for a tiny amount of matter to condense and make you conscious.

And even when you die, and your matter is absorbed back into the fabric of reality, there will never be a moment when that energy ceases to exist- and every conscious decision you made will have consequences beyond your comprehension!

K and nangs is a great combination.

This thread is getting interesting.

This is only true if what you mean by "you" is just the particles that are your physical makeup. I would submit that there are several possible definitions of what "you" are. The most common is that "you" are a self, with definate subject/object boundaries which will certainly cease to exist when you die.

At the other end, Buddhism and some Western philosophers like Galen Strawson, say that "you" ony existings very fleetingly, in the now moment, and there is nothing concrete that remains through each subsequent now moment. "you" now is in this sense a different being to "you" last week, or 10 years ago.
 
andythetwig said:
you'll never not exist. In scientific terms, you could argue that every movement of energy in the universe occured in order for a tiny amount of matter to condense and make you conscious.

And even when you die, and your matter is absorbed back into the fabric of reality, there will never be a moment when that energy ceases to exist- and every conscious decision you made will have consequences beyond your comprehension!

K and nangs is a great combination.


that's pretty much my current theory, we don't die we aren't reincarnated. We are dispered as energy into everything :)
 
So I went to see Prof Val Curran from UCL presenting some of her results on ketamine research, which was pretty interesting. The negative effects on memory in heavy users (every other day k use) while not unexpected were still pretty significant.

The high scoring of acute ketamine use on schizophrenic rating tests also pointed to similarities between ketamine state and schizophrenia, although there are obvious major differences (the more commonly positive experience of ketamine, and the fact that schizophrenic hallucinations are typically aural rather than visual).
 
non-k users needed for paid UCL study

Hi,

You may have seen my messages about my thesis study into the effects of ketamine (info below) in the European Drugs Discussion forum - the moderators there have suggested that I post here as well.

I am looking for people who use drugs at least twice a month, for at least a year, but have never used ketamine.

You would complete computer based tasks, pen and paper questionnaires, and provide a drug history and urine sample.

You will be paid 15 quid to compenstate you for your time.

If you are interested, please read below and/or PM/email ([email protected]) me for info.

Thanks very much.

Justin


Hi,

I'm doing my Doctorate in Clinical Psychology at University College London (UCL), and my thesis is investigating the effects of ketamine on mental processing and personal experiences. I have been given permission by the administrator of this forum to post messages to see if any one would like to take part in the study. Before I continue, I would like to apologise in advance for any offence that may be caused by using your forum in this way. I also want to emphasise that this study is not being run by drug/pharmaceutical companies.

I am looking for people to participate who fall into either of these two groups:
1. Ketamine users (as well as other drugs) who use ketamine at least twice/month, for at least 1yr
2. Other drug users (EXcluding ketamine use) using drugs at least twice/month, for at least 1yr

The study takes about 1.5 - 2 hours, and comprises computer based tasks, as well as some pen and paper questionnaires, a drug history and a urine sample. (Participants will not be given drugs at the time of testing.) The study has been approved by the UCL Research Ethics Board, and all information collected about you is held in accordance with the 1998 Data Protection act, i.e. your confidentiality will be assured.

In exchange for your time you will be paid £15.

Ideally, the study will take place at University College London (off Tottenham Court Road). However, if necessary I can meet people elsewhere. Testing can take place at pretty much anytime - week days and evenings, and weekends.

If you are interested and would like to know more please let me know, either on this forum or through a private message.

Thank you for reading.

Justin Grayer
Trainee Clinical Psychologist
Sub department of Clinical Health Psychology, UCL,
1-19 Torrington Place, London, WC1E 6BT
 
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