adrian89987
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He means not even combining with moclo being the maoi
The Big & Dandy Oral DMT thread (Ayahuasca/Pharmahuasca)
- Thread starter Bare_head
- Start date
Duaut
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- Sep 11, 2007
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I'm surprised no one has posted this on oral DMT
-Oral dosing with DMT-
By: Elfspice
This is a collection of various material that I have found around the net and from my own experiences. Recently updated with a few various links the the amazing WikiPedia web site (which helps to explain a little more)! To be used as a basic guide to oral dosing with DMT, since there is a severe lack of information on the net about this, I decided to create my own. Please keep in mind that DMT is a very strong hallucinogen, and you should not drive, or attend any social events while under the influence of DMT. The best way to take it is ether alone, if you need to focus on healing parts of your life. Or with a few close friends in a comfortable setting. No loud music, just chillin music, like boards of canada. It is also a very variable chemical, I assume it is because DMT is naturally in the brain already in various amounts differing from person to person and day to day, so some days you can take a small amount to have a strong experience, others the same amount may not do very much. 100mgs seems to be a good starting point to become familiar with this chemical. Keep in mind this is no "drug", it should not be abused, sold for money, or used in any inappropriate manner. In my opinion this is a sacred and very useful chemical, and has been since the beginning of time. It is found in over 1000 species of plants and animals (most of which haven't even been discovered to have DMT in them yet), including human beings. Ancient south american tribes have been using this for thousands of years for healing purposes and spiritual journeys in the form of Ayahuasca, a brew made with various dmt containing plants from the area, and the vine of Banisteriopsis Caapi. Oral dosing with freebase is just a shortcut to the Ayahuasca experience, some like Ayahuasca better because it is more spiritual and more natural. But I like oral dosing with DMT Freebase, simply because it is cleaner, easier to take, less nausea, and no nasty taste of the brew.
Table of contents:
What DMT is
Oral Dose Range
MAOI's
Foods/Drugs to avoid
Tips for a better experience
Experiences
What DMT is:
I'm not gonna lie, I stole this right from the wikipedia page... great info though.
Dimethyltryptamine, also known as DMT or N,N-dimethyltryptamine, is an indole, similar in structure to the neurotransmitter serotonin, created during normal metabolism in low amounts by the human body (secreted by the pineal gland). Pure DMT at room temperature is a colorless waxy or crystalline solid. DMT was first chemically synthesized in 1931. It also occurs naturally in many species of plants. DMT-containing plants are used in several South American shamanic practices. It is believed to be one of the main active constituents of snuffs like yopo and of the "potion" ayahuasca.
DMT is a powerful psychoactive substance. If DMT is smoked, injected, or orally ingested with a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, it can produce powerful entheogenic experiences including true hallucinations (virtual experiences that are indistinguishable from reality).
Inhalation: If DMT is smoked/inhaled, the maximal effects last for a short period of time (10 minutes +/- 5 minutes). The onset after inhalation is very fast (less than 45 seconds) and maximal effects are reached within about a minute.
Injection: Injected DMT produces an experience similar to inhalation in duration, intensity, and characteristics, although by some accounts it is more emotionally clinical (versus spiritual).
Oral ingestion: DMT, which is broken down by the digestive enzyme monoamine oxidase, is inactive if taken orally, unless combined with a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI). The shamanic potion ayahuasca, or yage, is a tea-like admixture of the boiled leaves, bark or roots of a variety of plants, usually including Psychotria viridis which contains high levels of DMT, and Banisteriopsis caapi which contains harmala alkaloids which are powerful MAOIs. Taken orally with an appropriate MAOI, DMT produces a long lasting (over 1 hour), slow onset, high intensity experience.
Induced DMT experiences can include profound time-dilation, time travel, journeys to paranormal realms, and encounters with spiritual beings or other mystical/trans-dimensional modalities that, by most first hand accounts, defy verbal or visual description.
In any case, it is highly uncommon for someone who experiences DMT in any form to talk about it afterwards as a "recreational" experience.
DMT is a derivative of tryptamine with two additional methyl groups at the amine nitrogen atom. DMT is often synthesized by the Speeter-Anthony synthesis from indole using oxalyl chloride, dimethylamine, and lithium aluminum hydride as reagents. DMT is usually used in its base form, but it is more stable as a salt, e.g. as a fumarate. In contrast to DMT base its salts are soluble in water. DMT in solution degrades relatively fast and should be stored protected from air and light in a freezer.
As DMT is naturally secreted by the human pineal gland, it is believed to play a role in dreaming, near-death experiences and other mystical states. It has been speculated by the researcher Jace Callaway that DMT might be connected with visual dreaming. By some scientific accounts, DMT can be found in elevated amounts during times of visual dreaming or after near-death experiences.
Interesting non-scientific writers on DMT include Terence McKenna and Jeremy Narby, though many people treat their writings with skepticism. McKenna writes of his experiences with DMT in which he encounters entities he describes as "Self-Transforming Machine Elves". Other users report visitation from external intelligences attempting to impart information. These Machine Elf experiences are said to be shared by many DMT users. From a researcher's perspective, perhaps best known is Rick Strassman's The Spirit Molecule.
Oral Dose range for DMT:
This part I did not write, it was written by carpedmt in the ayahuasca forums, though slightly modified by me.
DMT can be of different strengths depending on where it came from, what the purity of it is, if it is natural or synthetic....ultra pure dmt will be like see through crystals, whereas natural dmt can be like a black, gummy stuff which may only be 60% pure! (the rest being other alkaloids and gunk!) pure natural dmt will be crystalline and be lightly colored white, yellow, pink, orange or other colors more rarely. 45 minutes has been shown to be a good amount of time between taking the Syrian rue and the pure dmt freebase.
These are some estimates/understandings of dosages in this scenarios and their effects that have been ascertained by various modern day researchers. Different people have different body weights obviously, and simply respond differently to quantities off DMT. And also it depends on how much MAOI one uses....these figures are for a good average MAOI dose, say 3-5 grams of rue...with an average person of average body weight who is typically well prepared and capable of dealing with psychotropic states.
30mg - something is going on....for most people this is not nearly enough to be of any significance, unless one is taking a very large MAOI dose....or a lot of ayahuasca vine. This may be a good introduction.
60mg - possibly light visuals, probably not very much. A good gentle self observational, light physical opening. Walking around and interacting should be easy. Most should have no problems dealing with this dose.
100mg - clear visuals, opening, brightening of all senses, a good effect. This is a good dose, to start with. Walking around and sitting upright are very possible. Maybe there can be a beginning for inter dimensional communications and the like. Good for singing and bodywork, sorting out the personal inventory etc. This is a good starting dose in my opinion.
150mg - strong for many people, where it gets more visionary and immersed for others, where the trans personal really beings to kick in. Many won't find they are really getting to where they want to go with this dose.
200mg - usually a solid immersive visionary experience, where one is still able to navigate the physical reality if need be.
250mg - many are pretty much pinned to the floor, this dose can be very workable for many people.
300mg - a very strong visionary dose, as much as 90% of people would ever really want to do. This is where inter dimensional communication, O.B.E. like experiences, and very unusual and experientially real phenomena really come to the fore. Although, 200mg may do the same thing for other people.
400mg - some people need this much (of large body weight and tolerance to substances in general!), but usually 300mg is about the upper limit, beyond that it can become difficult to work with for most.
500mg - too 'full on' to really work with for most...just too much information....the elements that arise may become too distorted and 'excited' for their to really be grounding and/or assimilation.
700-1000mg - no recall to little recall whatsoever, can be very stressful to the system, where the quality of overdosing in the smoked DMT state comes into play. i.e. convulsing, frothing at the mouth, eyes rolling backwards.
The heads up is that for some people, 150mg may be 'too much', and cause overdose experiences. Not to say that an OD is purely negative, only that it is a very challenging experience for the body. However, even at 1000mg (or 1 gram), this basic combination of material seems safe and ultimately life changing....although 1000mg could only really be considered as a possible dose for people who take 5000mics of acid and talk about the weather and for whom psychoactive substances only really work in amounts most would consider far beyond the pale. Or for those who have 100+ journeys, and who possibly just want to see what can happen at this dosage level and are prepared to cope with the fallout and possible difficulties. (which can be immense)
DMT is a tricky, funny substance, and dosage is not important at times, just like with smoked dmt, sometimes it only takes a little bit to bring about monumental experiences, other times one can do very large amounts and not that much will happen, maybe nothing at all will happen!
MAOI's (Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors)
This will just be kind of a quick FAQ.
What is an MAOI?
Wikipedia's MAOI Page
They are antidepressants which are effective in the treatment of atypical depression (vegetative symptoms, anxiety, initial insomnia, etc), panic disorder, anxiety and (recently discovered) borderline personality disorder. MonoAmine Oxidization metabolizes serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine. By inhibiting this, MAOI's increase levels of those neurotransmitters. Phenelzine (Nardil) and tranycypromine (Parnate) are the two popular MAOI's. moclobemide (Aurorex -- called something else in canada) is a recently introduced MAOI which is slightly different and apparently not as effective, although it eliminates the hazards associated with the earlier MAOI's.
Why do you need them?
Simply because the Monoamine Oxidase in your stomach destroys DMT, along with other compounds before entering your bloodstream, so when you inhibit this it will allow the drug to not be broken down and enter your bloodstream.
What is tyramine?
Tyramine is an amino acid which is normally metabolized by MAO in the gut. After taking tranylcypromine or phenelzine (but not, apparently, moclobemide) this MAO is inhibited and any dietary Tyramine will not be metabolized and will cause an increase in tyramine levels in blood. This is bad due to tyramine's effect on norepinephrine and leads to a hypertensive crisis. Blood pressure goes up to 180+ over something, heartbeat goes to well over 100 bpm, and people who suffer one of these typically report getting the most painful headache of their lives. Sometimes a Ca-blocker like nifedipine is prescribed for the user of the MAOI to take to combat this effect should it occur. Tyramine is in cheese, wines, and anything aged or fermented. Also, symptathomimetic drugs (MDMA, amphetamines, OTC cold med's like ephedrine, dextromethorphan, etc) can cause a hypertensive crisis.
Although there is significant evidence that Harmaline/Harmine do not cause problems with tyramine. I would still be a little cautious, especially with the medications to avoid.
What medications are MAOI's?
Not all anti-depressants are MAOI's in fact most of them are not, they are SSRI's!
Examples of SSRI's include:
Prozac (Fluoxetine)
Paxil (Paroxetine)
Zoloft (Sertraline)
Celexa (Citalopram)
Desyrel (Trazodone)
Luvox (Fluvoxamine)
SSRI's do not allot DMT to be activated orally. They may potentate certain psychedelics due to the high levels of serotonin that occur in your brain. But they will not make dmt orally active. Also you should NEVER combine an MAOI with an SSRI.. you can end up with serotonin syndrome, which is most definitely not good.
MAOI's are phenelzine (Nardil), tranylcypromine (Parnate), isocarboxazid (Marplan), l-deprenyl (Eldepryl), moclobemide (Aurorex or Manerix), furazolidone, and pargyline. Ayahuasca also contains MAOI's, generally in the form of Banisteriopsis caapi or Syrian rue (harmine and harmaline). Allot of these are very rare and they probably don't even make them anymore, aside from Moclobemide. For DMT purposes it is best to use the short acting Harmaline/Harmala MAOI's. Also they are legal to obtain for anyone, and allot safer in terms of food restrictions and drug interactions. They have been used safely for thousands of years by indigenous tribes in South America
FOODS/DRUGS TO AVOID
To be honest allot of this is blown out of proportion for the use of Harmine/Harmaline MAOI's. This seems mostly limited to irreversible MAOI's. Not the short acting Harmala Alkaloids. Mostly you will be fine if you eat anything here. But you may get a headache. As a rule of thumb, you should not eat cheese or drink wine, those seem to be the only ones that cause any real problems, but I have never seen it, even after eating cheese then taking Harmaline. But you should always be safe. For a complete list of food to avoid check out this. But I don't put much faith in it, it is mostly talking about the old MAOI's they used way back in the day.
Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) and Caapi contain harmaline and harmine, both potent, but selective (and short-term reversible) inhibitors of MAO-A. But there are three good arguments that tyramine is not a problem:
Timing. Tyramine gets digested pretty quickly, and likely clears the gut in 12 hours or so. The harmala alkaloids are also short acting, and also clear in 12 hours, perhaps more like 6 hours. Most people who take Syrian Rue brews do not eat anything just before, since vomiting is so common, and few people eat a big meal right afterward. This means it's unlikely the two would be at high levels at the same time.
Selectivity. Tyramine is also controlled by MAO-B, which is not affected by the harmala's, which inhibit MAO-A. Medical experience with Moclobemide, another reversable MAOI (but not as strong as harmaline), is also that tyramine is not as much of a problem as it is with the older, irreversible (2 weeks or so), and non-selective medical MAO-I's such as parnate.
Experience. There are some anecdotal reports of ingesting tyramine foods just after a Syrian Rue experience without problems.
When one is first working with an MAOI, even the harmala's, it best to be cautious. Hypertensive reactions are not only unpleasant, but can be extremely unpleasant, do permanent damage, or be fatal. To be cautious, avoid aged cheese, red wine, and other aged/pickled/fermented foods (soy, yeast) for 12 hours before and after ingesting Syrian Rue or other reversible MAOI. I would not worry about chocolate, beer, or coffee, in reasonable amounts before or after harmala.
I would give the following guideline of foods and drugs to avoid:
Cheese: Especially in large amounts. Though i have known people to eat cheese and not have a problem, but that doesn't mean it won't happen to you. Just be safe.
Wine: I hear wine has large amounts of tyramine in it, due to the aging factor. I would not recommend it though I have no experience if it would cause any problems. Beer is fine to drink, from experience.
All of these drugs should be avoided like the plague the day of taking MAOI 's... though i really have no evidence to back this up. But still the safety issue is there.
All SSRI's (prozac, zoloft, and several other anti-depressants)
SSRI's block the reuptake of serotonin in the brain. Because MAOI's inhibit the breakdown of serotonin, the combination of MAOI's and SSRI's can lead to dangerously high levels of serotonin in the brain (serotonin syndrome). Symptoms of serotonin syndrome include nausea, vomiting, blackouts, memory loss, increased blood pressure and increased heart rate.
Demerol
Cold preparations (mostly containing Pseudoephedrine, or Ephedrine)
Cough medications, Dextromethorphan (DXM)
Sinus medications
Nose drops or nasal sprays
Nasal decongestants
Diet pills
Amphetamines --- speed
MDMA --- Ecstasy
MDE, MDA, and other "MD" compounds
Cocaine --- crack
Also if you have any experience on drugs/foods to avoid or ones that are fine, you should e-mail me.
Tips for a better experience
DMT is strange stuff. Sometimes a very little bit will blast you out of this world and sometimes a large amount will hardly do anything at all. Some of the best ways I've found to have better experiences are to dose with some close friends in a friendly environment.
DMT seems to be suited for the outdoors. So go camping or something. Also get your body moving if you just sit there like a log your blood is not flowing as much as it should so your not feeling quite the way you should be. It is always a good idea to take a walk while on any psychedelic. Lots of exercise is even better if your up to it.
This is purely a theory, if anyone has anything to debunk or prove it true please let me know:
Tryptamines and serotonin:
I think that taking some 5-HTP before tripping to increase the serotonin flow in your brain would also greatly enhance the DMT experience, though I have no experience with this, it could work. If someone is willing to try it and tell me about it, I would be more than grateful. I believe that serotonin has a large role to play in the effectiveness of DMT and all other Psychedelics, though I have no conctrete proof that this is true. The reason I think this way is that allot of Psychedelic molecules are pretty similar in structure to the Serotonin molecule, I think they may act on each other, the serotonin may attract the Psychedelics and help deliver them into the brain. Or it could be that the Psychedelics are in fact neurotransmitters of their own, maybe? The MAOIs do prevent the breakdown of monoamine neurotransmitters, including serotonin, and therefore increase concentrations of the neurotransmitter in the brain. Would that also mean that DMT itself could be a monoamine neurotransmitter? Is that why we need to inhibit its breakdown?
Also it is true that serotonin in itself is a tryptamine known as 5-hydroxytryptamine, interesting eh?
If you have any tips on how to have a better experience on DMT then please e-mail them to me.
Experiences
Here are some experiences I have had with oral used a DMT. This does not include my Ayahuasca experiences. If you have an experience you would like to add here, you should e-mail it to me at. [email protected]
Experience #1:
This does not include all my previous Ayahuasca experiences.. maybe about 6 total. But this was a really good trip I had. Here how it went.
I don't remember the times we ingested the substance, but it went like this.
We ate 150 mg's of Harmaline freebase, then 45 minutes later we dosed the DMT (100mgs), then we went and played pool on my friends pool table. About an hour after eating the DMT the music started getting this strange sound to it, it would go into your brain and tickle certain spots in your mind. It was crazy, I was seeing this intricate pattern of leaves and vines on the pool table. At this point I was getting a little overwhelmed by the hallucinations. So I said we should go on a walk, everyone agreed and we wen 't to walk up to these rocks in the middle of this field. As I was walking I could not walk straight at all, I was all over the road. My stomach was growing increasingly uncomfortable, so I decided I might as well puke. So I went off the trail and puked as much as I could, it was hard to puke, it didn't feel like I was in my body. I remember seeing a Big fat gray lady with about 5 eyes sitting cross-legged with my eyes closed. After puking I felt waaay better, so we continued on our journey to the rocks. Everyone once in a while I would close my eyes to see if I was still having closed eye visuals, and I most definitely was, I remember seeing millions of fractaled eyes just looking at me, much like one of Alex Grey's pictures named "dying". I remember a feeling of total bliss and peace overtook my body and I just felt great the rest of the night even a few days afterwards.
Experience #2:
11:45 PM: I took 150mgs of harmaline freebase in a capsule
12:30 AM: I have a strange taste in my mouth and my head feels little strange
12:50 AM: Took the 200mgs of DMT Freebase, and I am very anxious/nervous about the experience. But i always get that way when ingesting a hallucinogen, cuz I never know what is going to happen.
1:25 AM: Nothing yet, maybe a little audio changes, but that's it.
2:15 AM: Got back from taking my dog on a walk and it just barely kicked in HARD. Everything is moving around, but something is just not right.,.
3:00 AM: I seem to be pretty much completely down... something went wrong, I don't know what. Maybe I didn't take enough MAOI? 150mgs worked good last time, but this is probably a new batch. All was not lost though, I had a really good trip, lots of thoughts, I thought through and sorted out allot of stuff in my life. It was a good experience for me. But it seems as if i had a stronger experience on 100mgs of dmt. I dunno... dmt is tricky stuff. I think it only works when your brain wants it to work. I think I may have had to high of expectations for the trip by thinking how great its going to be and how hard i'm gonna trip, its best to not think about it, just let it happen. But it was probably an MAOI issue. Although... I have a theory, I pretty much ate nothing today, but last time I ate a big old plate of spaghetti an hour before I dosed and i had a waaay stronger experience. also on previous Ayahuasca sessions when fasting all day I would usually end up with the same thing, a quick trip that faded fast, while eating before Aya I would trip allot longer.. Perhaps food is the key here? To help with digestion maybe? Something I will investigate in future experiments.
-Oral dosing with DMT-
By: Elfspice
This is a collection of various material that I have found around the net and from my own experiences. Recently updated with a few various links the the amazing WikiPedia web site (which helps to explain a little more)! To be used as a basic guide to oral dosing with DMT, since there is a severe lack of information on the net about this, I decided to create my own. Please keep in mind that DMT is a very strong hallucinogen, and you should not drive, or attend any social events while under the influence of DMT. The best way to take it is ether alone, if you need to focus on healing parts of your life. Or with a few close friends in a comfortable setting. No loud music, just chillin music, like boards of canada. It is also a very variable chemical, I assume it is because DMT is naturally in the brain already in various amounts differing from person to person and day to day, so some days you can take a small amount to have a strong experience, others the same amount may not do very much. 100mgs seems to be a good starting point to become familiar with this chemical. Keep in mind this is no "drug", it should not be abused, sold for money, or used in any inappropriate manner. In my opinion this is a sacred and very useful chemical, and has been since the beginning of time. It is found in over 1000 species of plants and animals (most of which haven't even been discovered to have DMT in them yet), including human beings. Ancient south american tribes have been using this for thousands of years for healing purposes and spiritual journeys in the form of Ayahuasca, a brew made with various dmt containing plants from the area, and the vine of Banisteriopsis Caapi. Oral dosing with freebase is just a shortcut to the Ayahuasca experience, some like Ayahuasca better because it is more spiritual and more natural. But I like oral dosing with DMT Freebase, simply because it is cleaner, easier to take, less nausea, and no nasty taste of the brew.
Table of contents:
What DMT is
Oral Dose Range
MAOI's
Foods/Drugs to avoid
Tips for a better experience
Experiences
What DMT is:
I'm not gonna lie, I stole this right from the wikipedia page... great info though.
Dimethyltryptamine, also known as DMT or N,N-dimethyltryptamine, is an indole, similar in structure to the neurotransmitter serotonin, created during normal metabolism in low amounts by the human body (secreted by the pineal gland). Pure DMT at room temperature is a colorless waxy or crystalline solid. DMT was first chemically synthesized in 1931. It also occurs naturally in many species of plants. DMT-containing plants are used in several South American shamanic practices. It is believed to be one of the main active constituents of snuffs like yopo and of the "potion" ayahuasca.
DMT is a powerful psychoactive substance. If DMT is smoked, injected, or orally ingested with a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, it can produce powerful entheogenic experiences including true hallucinations (virtual experiences that are indistinguishable from reality).
Inhalation: If DMT is smoked/inhaled, the maximal effects last for a short period of time (10 minutes +/- 5 minutes). The onset after inhalation is very fast (less than 45 seconds) and maximal effects are reached within about a minute.
Injection: Injected DMT produces an experience similar to inhalation in duration, intensity, and characteristics, although by some accounts it is more emotionally clinical (versus spiritual).
Oral ingestion: DMT, which is broken down by the digestive enzyme monoamine oxidase, is inactive if taken orally, unless combined with a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI). The shamanic potion ayahuasca, or yage, is a tea-like admixture of the boiled leaves, bark or roots of a variety of plants, usually including Psychotria viridis which contains high levels of DMT, and Banisteriopsis caapi which contains harmala alkaloids which are powerful MAOIs. Taken orally with an appropriate MAOI, DMT produces a long lasting (over 1 hour), slow onset, high intensity experience.
Induced DMT experiences can include profound time-dilation, time travel, journeys to paranormal realms, and encounters with spiritual beings or other mystical/trans-dimensional modalities that, by most first hand accounts, defy verbal or visual description.
In any case, it is highly uncommon for someone who experiences DMT in any form to talk about it afterwards as a "recreational" experience.
DMT is a derivative of tryptamine with two additional methyl groups at the amine nitrogen atom. DMT is often synthesized by the Speeter-Anthony synthesis from indole using oxalyl chloride, dimethylamine, and lithium aluminum hydride as reagents. DMT is usually used in its base form, but it is more stable as a salt, e.g. as a fumarate. In contrast to DMT base its salts are soluble in water. DMT in solution degrades relatively fast and should be stored protected from air and light in a freezer.
As DMT is naturally secreted by the human pineal gland, it is believed to play a role in dreaming, near-death experiences and other mystical states. It has been speculated by the researcher Jace Callaway that DMT might be connected with visual dreaming. By some scientific accounts, DMT can be found in elevated amounts during times of visual dreaming or after near-death experiences.
Interesting non-scientific writers on DMT include Terence McKenna and Jeremy Narby, though many people treat their writings with skepticism. McKenna writes of his experiences with DMT in which he encounters entities he describes as "Self-Transforming Machine Elves". Other users report visitation from external intelligences attempting to impart information. These Machine Elf experiences are said to be shared by many DMT users. From a researcher's perspective, perhaps best known is Rick Strassman's The Spirit Molecule.
Oral Dose range for DMT:
This part I did not write, it was written by carpedmt in the ayahuasca forums, though slightly modified by me.
DMT can be of different strengths depending on where it came from, what the purity of it is, if it is natural or synthetic....ultra pure dmt will be like see through crystals, whereas natural dmt can be like a black, gummy stuff which may only be 60% pure! (the rest being other alkaloids and gunk!) pure natural dmt will be crystalline and be lightly colored white, yellow, pink, orange or other colors more rarely. 45 minutes has been shown to be a good amount of time between taking the Syrian rue and the pure dmt freebase.
These are some estimates/understandings of dosages in this scenarios and their effects that have been ascertained by various modern day researchers. Different people have different body weights obviously, and simply respond differently to quantities off DMT. And also it depends on how much MAOI one uses....these figures are for a good average MAOI dose, say 3-5 grams of rue...with an average person of average body weight who is typically well prepared and capable of dealing with psychotropic states.
30mg - something is going on....for most people this is not nearly enough to be of any significance, unless one is taking a very large MAOI dose....or a lot of ayahuasca vine. This may be a good introduction.
60mg - possibly light visuals, probably not very much. A good gentle self observational, light physical opening. Walking around and interacting should be easy. Most should have no problems dealing with this dose.
100mg - clear visuals, opening, brightening of all senses, a good effect. This is a good dose, to start with. Walking around and sitting upright are very possible. Maybe there can be a beginning for inter dimensional communications and the like. Good for singing and bodywork, sorting out the personal inventory etc. This is a good starting dose in my opinion.
150mg - strong for many people, where it gets more visionary and immersed for others, where the trans personal really beings to kick in. Many won't find they are really getting to where they want to go with this dose.
200mg - usually a solid immersive visionary experience, where one is still able to navigate the physical reality if need be.
250mg - many are pretty much pinned to the floor, this dose can be very workable for many people.
300mg - a very strong visionary dose, as much as 90% of people would ever really want to do. This is where inter dimensional communication, O.B.E. like experiences, and very unusual and experientially real phenomena really come to the fore. Although, 200mg may do the same thing for other people.
400mg - some people need this much (of large body weight and tolerance to substances in general!), but usually 300mg is about the upper limit, beyond that it can become difficult to work with for most.
500mg - too 'full on' to really work with for most...just too much information....the elements that arise may become too distorted and 'excited' for their to really be grounding and/or assimilation.
700-1000mg - no recall to little recall whatsoever, can be very stressful to the system, where the quality of overdosing in the smoked DMT state comes into play. i.e. convulsing, frothing at the mouth, eyes rolling backwards.
The heads up is that for some people, 150mg may be 'too much', and cause overdose experiences. Not to say that an OD is purely negative, only that it is a very challenging experience for the body. However, even at 1000mg (or 1 gram), this basic combination of material seems safe and ultimately life changing....although 1000mg could only really be considered as a possible dose for people who take 5000mics of acid and talk about the weather and for whom psychoactive substances only really work in amounts most would consider far beyond the pale. Or for those who have 100+ journeys, and who possibly just want to see what can happen at this dosage level and are prepared to cope with the fallout and possible difficulties. (which can be immense)
DMT is a tricky, funny substance, and dosage is not important at times, just like with smoked dmt, sometimes it only takes a little bit to bring about monumental experiences, other times one can do very large amounts and not that much will happen, maybe nothing at all will happen!
MAOI's (Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors)
This will just be kind of a quick FAQ.
What is an MAOI?
Wikipedia's MAOI Page
They are antidepressants which are effective in the treatment of atypical depression (vegetative symptoms, anxiety, initial insomnia, etc), panic disorder, anxiety and (recently discovered) borderline personality disorder. MonoAmine Oxidization metabolizes serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine. By inhibiting this, MAOI's increase levels of those neurotransmitters. Phenelzine (Nardil) and tranycypromine (Parnate) are the two popular MAOI's. moclobemide (Aurorex -- called something else in canada) is a recently introduced MAOI which is slightly different and apparently not as effective, although it eliminates the hazards associated with the earlier MAOI's.
Why do you need them?
Simply because the Monoamine Oxidase in your stomach destroys DMT, along with other compounds before entering your bloodstream, so when you inhibit this it will allow the drug to not be broken down and enter your bloodstream.
What is tyramine?
Tyramine is an amino acid which is normally metabolized by MAO in the gut. After taking tranylcypromine or phenelzine (but not, apparently, moclobemide) this MAO is inhibited and any dietary Tyramine will not be metabolized and will cause an increase in tyramine levels in blood. This is bad due to tyramine's effect on norepinephrine and leads to a hypertensive crisis. Blood pressure goes up to 180+ over something, heartbeat goes to well over 100 bpm, and people who suffer one of these typically report getting the most painful headache of their lives. Sometimes a Ca-blocker like nifedipine is prescribed for the user of the MAOI to take to combat this effect should it occur. Tyramine is in cheese, wines, and anything aged or fermented. Also, symptathomimetic drugs (MDMA, amphetamines, OTC cold med's like ephedrine, dextromethorphan, etc) can cause a hypertensive crisis.
Although there is significant evidence that Harmaline/Harmine do not cause problems with tyramine. I would still be a little cautious, especially with the medications to avoid.
What medications are MAOI's?
Not all anti-depressants are MAOI's in fact most of them are not, they are SSRI's!
Examples of SSRI's include:
Prozac (Fluoxetine)
Paxil (Paroxetine)
Zoloft (Sertraline)
Celexa (Citalopram)
Desyrel (Trazodone)
Luvox (Fluvoxamine)
SSRI's do not allot DMT to be activated orally. They may potentate certain psychedelics due to the high levels of serotonin that occur in your brain. But they will not make dmt orally active. Also you should NEVER combine an MAOI with an SSRI.. you can end up with serotonin syndrome, which is most definitely not good.
MAOI's are phenelzine (Nardil), tranylcypromine (Parnate), isocarboxazid (Marplan), l-deprenyl (Eldepryl), moclobemide (Aurorex or Manerix), furazolidone, and pargyline. Ayahuasca also contains MAOI's, generally in the form of Banisteriopsis caapi or Syrian rue (harmine and harmaline). Allot of these are very rare and they probably don't even make them anymore, aside from Moclobemide. For DMT purposes it is best to use the short acting Harmaline/Harmala MAOI's. Also they are legal to obtain for anyone, and allot safer in terms of food restrictions and drug interactions. They have been used safely for thousands of years by indigenous tribes in South America
FOODS/DRUGS TO AVOID
To be honest allot of this is blown out of proportion for the use of Harmine/Harmaline MAOI's. This seems mostly limited to irreversible MAOI's. Not the short acting Harmala Alkaloids. Mostly you will be fine if you eat anything here. But you may get a headache. As a rule of thumb, you should not eat cheese or drink wine, those seem to be the only ones that cause any real problems, but I have never seen it, even after eating cheese then taking Harmaline. But you should always be safe. For a complete list of food to avoid check out this. But I don't put much faith in it, it is mostly talking about the old MAOI's they used way back in the day.
Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) and Caapi contain harmaline and harmine, both potent, but selective (and short-term reversible) inhibitors of MAO-A. But there are three good arguments that tyramine is not a problem:
Timing. Tyramine gets digested pretty quickly, and likely clears the gut in 12 hours or so. The harmala alkaloids are also short acting, and also clear in 12 hours, perhaps more like 6 hours. Most people who take Syrian Rue brews do not eat anything just before, since vomiting is so common, and few people eat a big meal right afterward. This means it's unlikely the two would be at high levels at the same time.
Selectivity. Tyramine is also controlled by MAO-B, which is not affected by the harmala's, which inhibit MAO-A. Medical experience with Moclobemide, another reversable MAOI (but not as strong as harmaline), is also that tyramine is not as much of a problem as it is with the older, irreversible (2 weeks or so), and non-selective medical MAO-I's such as parnate.
Experience. There are some anecdotal reports of ingesting tyramine foods just after a Syrian Rue experience without problems.
When one is first working with an MAOI, even the harmala's, it best to be cautious. Hypertensive reactions are not only unpleasant, but can be extremely unpleasant, do permanent damage, or be fatal. To be cautious, avoid aged cheese, red wine, and other aged/pickled/fermented foods (soy, yeast) for 12 hours before and after ingesting Syrian Rue or other reversible MAOI. I would not worry about chocolate, beer, or coffee, in reasonable amounts before or after harmala.
I would give the following guideline of foods and drugs to avoid:
Cheese: Especially in large amounts. Though i have known people to eat cheese and not have a problem, but that doesn't mean it won't happen to you. Just be safe.
Wine: I hear wine has large amounts of tyramine in it, due to the aging factor. I would not recommend it though I have no experience if it would cause any problems. Beer is fine to drink, from experience.
All of these drugs should be avoided like the plague the day of taking MAOI 's... though i really have no evidence to back this up. But still the safety issue is there.
All SSRI's (prozac, zoloft, and several other anti-depressants)
SSRI's block the reuptake of serotonin in the brain. Because MAOI's inhibit the breakdown of serotonin, the combination of MAOI's and SSRI's can lead to dangerously high levels of serotonin in the brain (serotonin syndrome). Symptoms of serotonin syndrome include nausea, vomiting, blackouts, memory loss, increased blood pressure and increased heart rate.
Demerol
Cold preparations (mostly containing Pseudoephedrine, or Ephedrine)
Cough medications, Dextromethorphan (DXM)
Sinus medications
Nose drops or nasal sprays
Nasal decongestants
Diet pills
Amphetamines --- speed
MDMA --- Ecstasy
MDE, MDA, and other "MD" compounds
Cocaine --- crack
Also if you have any experience on drugs/foods to avoid or ones that are fine, you should e-mail me.
Tips for a better experience
DMT is strange stuff. Sometimes a very little bit will blast you out of this world and sometimes a large amount will hardly do anything at all. Some of the best ways I've found to have better experiences are to dose with some close friends in a friendly environment.
DMT seems to be suited for the outdoors. So go camping or something. Also get your body moving if you just sit there like a log your blood is not flowing as much as it should so your not feeling quite the way you should be. It is always a good idea to take a walk while on any psychedelic. Lots of exercise is even better if your up to it.
This is purely a theory, if anyone has anything to debunk or prove it true please let me know:
Tryptamines and serotonin:
I think that taking some 5-HTP before tripping to increase the serotonin flow in your brain would also greatly enhance the DMT experience, though I have no experience with this, it could work. If someone is willing to try it and tell me about it, I would be more than grateful. I believe that serotonin has a large role to play in the effectiveness of DMT and all other Psychedelics, though I have no conctrete proof that this is true. The reason I think this way is that allot of Psychedelic molecules are pretty similar in structure to the Serotonin molecule, I think they may act on each other, the serotonin may attract the Psychedelics and help deliver them into the brain. Or it could be that the Psychedelics are in fact neurotransmitters of their own, maybe? The MAOIs do prevent the breakdown of monoamine neurotransmitters, including serotonin, and therefore increase concentrations of the neurotransmitter in the brain. Would that also mean that DMT itself could be a monoamine neurotransmitter? Is that why we need to inhibit its breakdown?
Also it is true that serotonin in itself is a tryptamine known as 5-hydroxytryptamine, interesting eh?
If you have any tips on how to have a better experience on DMT then please e-mail them to me.
Experiences
Here are some experiences I have had with oral used a DMT. This does not include my Ayahuasca experiences. If you have an experience you would like to add here, you should e-mail it to me at. [email protected]
Experience #1:
This does not include all my previous Ayahuasca experiences.. maybe about 6 total. But this was a really good trip I had. Here how it went.
I don't remember the times we ingested the substance, but it went like this.
We ate 150 mg's of Harmaline freebase, then 45 minutes later we dosed the DMT (100mgs), then we went and played pool on my friends pool table. About an hour after eating the DMT the music started getting this strange sound to it, it would go into your brain and tickle certain spots in your mind. It was crazy, I was seeing this intricate pattern of leaves and vines on the pool table. At this point I was getting a little overwhelmed by the hallucinations. So I said we should go on a walk, everyone agreed and we wen 't to walk up to these rocks in the middle of this field. As I was walking I could not walk straight at all, I was all over the road. My stomach was growing increasingly uncomfortable, so I decided I might as well puke. So I went off the trail and puked as much as I could, it was hard to puke, it didn't feel like I was in my body. I remember seeing a Big fat gray lady with about 5 eyes sitting cross-legged with my eyes closed. After puking I felt waaay better, so we continued on our journey to the rocks. Everyone once in a while I would close my eyes to see if I was still having closed eye visuals, and I most definitely was, I remember seeing millions of fractaled eyes just looking at me, much like one of Alex Grey's pictures named "dying". I remember a feeling of total bliss and peace overtook my body and I just felt great the rest of the night even a few days afterwards.
Experience #2:
11:45 PM: I took 150mgs of harmaline freebase in a capsule
12:30 AM: I have a strange taste in my mouth and my head feels little strange
12:50 AM: Took the 200mgs of DMT Freebase, and I am very anxious/nervous about the experience. But i always get that way when ingesting a hallucinogen, cuz I never know what is going to happen.
1:25 AM: Nothing yet, maybe a little audio changes, but that's it.
2:15 AM: Got back from taking my dog on a walk and it just barely kicked in HARD. Everything is moving around, but something is just not right.,.
3:00 AM: I seem to be pretty much completely down... something went wrong, I don't know what. Maybe I didn't take enough MAOI? 150mgs worked good last time, but this is probably a new batch. All was not lost though, I had a really good trip, lots of thoughts, I thought through and sorted out allot of stuff in my life. It was a good experience for me. But it seems as if i had a stronger experience on 100mgs of dmt. I dunno... dmt is tricky stuff. I think it only works when your brain wants it to work. I think I may have had to high of expectations for the trip by thinking how great its going to be and how hard i'm gonna trip, its best to not think about it, just let it happen. But it was probably an MAOI issue. Although... I have a theory, I pretty much ate nothing today, but last time I ate a big old plate of spaghetti an hour before I dosed and i had a waaay stronger experience. also on previous Ayahuasca sessions when fasting all day I would usually end up with the same thing, a quick trip that faded fast, while eating before Aya I would trip allot longer.. Perhaps food is the key here? To help with digestion maybe? Something I will investigate in future experiments.
Riemann Zeta
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With 200mg of DMT, you were still able to walk your dog!? Perhaps the DMT was degraded (to DMT-N-Oxide via exposure to air), as is often the case if it is not absolutely fresh. I took 75mg of DMT freebase following 300mg of meclobemide and was super-glued to the rug.
Solipsis
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It boggles my mind that so many of you are able to get hold of moclobemide, I don't think it's the most friendly substance to be medicated with (which is the purpose for the majority).
Anyway, I'm looking forward to be the prowd owner of self-made re-X-ed DMT and complementary harmala extracts. The wheels have been set in to motion!
You know, tryptamines have always given me more of a sense of fantasy realm, like some fairytale land and DMT is like your shuttleride there instead of a sketchy fly-by. Funny thing is, I'm almost homesick to the DMT dimension, not in a way that I think of it as any kind of substitute or comparable... but it's the only place where everything feels like it truly belongs, although LSD is the one other substance that can be tuned to this "exact" vibe.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to be the prowd owner of self-made re-X-ed DMT and complementary harmala extracts. The wheels have been set in to motion!
You know, tryptamines have always given me more of a sense of fantasy realm, like some fairytale land and DMT is like your shuttleride there instead of a sketchy fly-by. Funny thing is, I'm almost homesick to the DMT dimension, not in a way that I think of it as any kind of substitute or comparable... but it's the only place where everything feels like it truly belongs, although LSD is the one other substance that can be tuned to this "exact" vibe.
Shakti
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I'm really surprised by how high the recommended dmt doses are in this thread. But I don't really know all that much about it. What do people think about this dosing chart on erowid?
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=25157
That page doesn't say anything about the maoi dose except that it's a syrian rue extract. I'm curious how would 75mgs of freebase DMT with 150 mgs of >98% pure harmine hcl compare with 75mg DMT and 300mg harmine? Beyond the activation of the DMT, how much more will harmala alkaloids potentiate the dmt? Can individual body metabolism account for the vast variation in required dose?
I have access to high quality harmine hcl and high quality freebase dmt. Theoretically speaking (of course) where would a good place to start be? Before reading this thread I was thinking like 150mgs harmine and about 50mgs DMT. Now I don't know what to think except I'd hate to start at some of the higher recommended doses I'm reading and get blown out of the water.
I guess I should add I'm about 145lbs.
Thanks for any help people can give.
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=25157
That page doesn't say anything about the maoi dose except that it's a syrian rue extract. I'm curious how would 75mgs of freebase DMT with 150 mgs of >98% pure harmine hcl compare with 75mg DMT and 300mg harmine? Beyond the activation of the DMT, how much more will harmala alkaloids potentiate the dmt? Can individual body metabolism account for the vast variation in required dose?
I have access to high quality harmine hcl and high quality freebase dmt. Theoretically speaking (of course) where would a good place to start be? Before reading this thread I was thinking like 150mgs harmine and about 50mgs DMT. Now I don't know what to think except I'd hate to start at some of the higher recommended doses I'm reading and get blown out of the water.
I guess I should add I'm about 145lbs.
Thanks for any help people can give.
Roger&Me
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It's pretty easy to get just about anything nowadays, what with the interweb and all.
I'm really surprised by how high the recommended dmt doses are in this thread. But I don't really know all that much about it. What do people think about this dosing chart on erowid?
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=25157
That page doesn't say anything about the maoi dose except that it's a syrian rue extract. I'm curious how would 75mgs of freebase DMT with 150 mgs of >98% pure harmine hcl compare with 75mg DMT and 300mg harmine? Beyond the activation of the DMT, how much more will harmala alkaloids potentiate the dmt? Can individual body metabolism account for the vast variation in required dose?
I have access to high quality harmine hcl and high quality freebase dmt. Theoretically speaking (of course) where would a good place to start be? Before reading this thread I was thinking like 150mgs harmine and about 50mgs DMT. Now I don't know what to think except I'd hate to start at some of the higher recommended doses I'm reading and get blown out of the water.
I guess I should add I'm about 145lbs.
Thanks for any help people can give.
I'd start low as the power of oral DMT is something that you need to be aware of. 50-75mg sounds fine.
Mixing the DMT freebase with some cola and stirring could help reduce nausea.
Shakti
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Thanks Ismene. The cola sounds like a good idea. I'm also thinking about converting it to a fumarate. There's a good tek on how to do that floating around, I think on dmt nexus.
I'm still curious about harmine doses. Will going much past 150mgs change the psychedelic effects?
I did snuff about 75mgs of pure harmine once. It was very interesting. I don't think I could say it was psychedelic in any way though. Slowed my body down, and made every physical action very efficient and to the point. No wasted energy. It went up the nose cuz that way it doesn't get caught in the massive amounts of MAO I hear is contained within our gut.
I'm still curious about harmine doses. Will going much past 150mgs change the psychedelic effects?
I did snuff about 75mgs of pure harmine once. It was very interesting. I don't think I could say it was psychedelic in any way though. Slowed my body down, and made every physical action very efficient and to the point. No wasted energy. It went up the nose cuz that way it doesn't get caught in the massive amounts of MAO I hear is contained within our gut.
I think I read somewhere that the phosphate salt you get from the coca-cola is even less nauseating than the fumarate but you can still get pretty nauseous from it. I'd be interested in whether you find the fumarate nauseating tho.
I'm not sure whether once the DMT hits you that you'd notice much from the harmine. When the DMT kicks in it's like a nuclear bomb going off in your head so it probably overwhelms the harmine.
I think it depends how effective the maoi is - 300mg of moclobemide would probably make 60mg of DMT more than a threshold dose, especially for someone 145lbs bodyweight, but it depends how adventurous you are and how experienced you are - give 150mg a shot if you're in the mood!
I'd always recomend starting low with oral DMT tho.
psilocybonaut
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Maybe someone should mention that in order to do oral DMT, you must go on a strict diet for about a week before taking the MAOI. I know it's assumed that everyone already knows this, but what if some kid comes into this thread and has no idea and dies?
Please refer to this link for the proper use of MAOIs:
Erowid MAOI Vault
Foods To Avoid With MAOIs
Drugs To Avoid With MAOIs
Please refer to this link for the proper use of MAOIs:
Erowid MAOI Vault
Foods To Avoid With MAOIs
Drugs To Avoid With MAOIs
Maybe it is not something to be said on harm reduction forum, but once i ate a whole camembert (smelly french cheese, ~250g) while under the influence of 150mg harmine/harmaline extract, and i had no problem at all (no headache,no nausea, nothing).
Maybe i was lucky or maybe the diet does not have to be so strict.
psilocybonaut
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Yeah, well there are always exceptions (like maybe you got lucky), but I just don't want anyone to die from a lack of information.
rickolasnice
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Anyone got a link to the easiest and cheapest way to make ayahuasca? Or maybe your own recipe + method?
Solipsis
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It's pretty easy to get just about anything nowadays, what with the interweb and all.
Without reading your post I figured out this goes for (i think) medically obsolete pharmaceuticals including moclobemide as well, apparently not only are there many substances OTC in the fair country of Mechico but internationally oriented websites sometimes seem not to be bound by perscription legalities.
I wish I had an ese in mechico!
Man if I lived there I would probably be whacked on peyote and OTC K about 24/7.
This aurorix stuff is expensive though
![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
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Psyduck
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I have 40 gr Mimosa Hostilis and 60 gr of P. Harmala.
Can I make something with this? Or do I need a lot more equipment?
___
Ok, I admit being lazy but I don't want to google for hours to realize that the preperations requires special skills or other chemicals.
Cheers, x
Can I make something with this? Or do I need a lot more equipment?
___
Ok, I admit being lazy
but I don't want to google for hours to realize that the preperations requires special skills or other chemicals.Cheers, x