SECONDARY WITHDRAWAL...opiods..?

[Tongue]

ok, im curios as o how long any of you have experienced the seconday withdrawal symptoms upon stopping opiods...by seconday withdrawal, i mean TIREDNESS, LOW tolerance for PAIN, DEPRESSION, BOREDOM, INSOMNIA, and tht "zombie-esque" feling...how long have u experienced these symptoms??

there seems to be alot of conflicting info when it ces to secondary ithdrawal, and the time it takes opiod receptors(yer natural ones) to repair themselves back to normal...i have talked to seeral docs/specialists about this, and some say it takes anywhere from 4-6 weeks, and 2 have even saidthere is studies that show it can take up to 18 months!!!!!u read that right....seems to be the most common timeline is abut 2-3 months to go backto feeling normal...then again, some claim you will never be normal ever again...

which brings me to another question, is there actual studies that show ones natural opiod receptors can permanently be lowered thru long term opiod use??

als, does anyone know the average time zone in which RELAPSE usually occurs??i imagine it would be within that 1-2 onths of being sober, but im not totally sure...

 

[Tri-nity]

I believe it.
After my three years of weekly opiate use I feel my receptors may never return to their full capacity. I'm I depressed about this? No. I had a lot of good times with all the morphine, methadone, oxy, and vicodin/loricet.
But if I go more than three months without any opiate I feel perfectly fine.

 

[Tri-nity]

It's like that Narvana lyric "And I forget just why I taste, oh yeah, I guess it makes me smile"
I believe after long periods of heavy use you can probably regain 95-98% capacity but never full receptor capacity, though this is JUST MY OPINION.

Even if I dont use for 3 months I can still gobble 80-90mg of Oxycodone in a sitting. For I figure with me there is some "permanent" tolerence.

 

[DexterMeth]

Even if I dont use for 3 months I can still gobble 80-90mg of Oxycodone in a sitting. For I figure with me there is some "permanent" tolerence.

I agree.

 

[synchrojet]

The issue of secondary withdrawals really doesn't apply to opiates in the same way it would to benzos. I know that the acute symptoms of opioid withdrawal are generally shortlived (< 1 week), and that the mental cravings seem to disappear not too terribly long after that, provided that there is no excess external stress. Granted, I can only speak from a short term use standpoint (80-120mg/day oxy for eight weeks or so), but I have yet to experience anything like the horrific benzo withdrawals from stopping valium intake of 50-80mg/day for the better part of a year. THAT was awful, and I must say that even over a month later I still have lingering effects (voices and tremors, akastesthia, insomnia, paranoia, etc.). Believe me, if I knew what was in store for me with that I would never have eaten a valium pill to begin with. Those of you who have never experinced a benzo withdrawal take heed: Opioid withdrawals are easy in comparison. Unpleasant, but not the nightmare of the benzo withdrawal.

 

[himynameis]

It's like that Narvana lyric "And I forget just why I taste, oh yeah, I guess it makes me smile"
I believe after long periods of heavy use you can probably regain 95-98% capacity but never full receptor capacity, though this is JUST MY OPINION.

Even if I dont use for 3 months I can still gobble 80-90mg of Oxycodone in a sitting. For I figure with me there is some "permanent" tolerence.

I agree as well.

 

[HeadyNuggets]

I would say at least a full month to feel 85-90% normal. This is after five years of using. After using daily for a few years opiates can really leave you with a dark backlog of psychological issues needing to be addressed and integrated.

The acute withdrawal is generally about a week and can be shortened with the use of loperamide. The acute withdrawal, however hellish, is not the hardest part. It's much more difficult to stay clean.

Never had any problems with benzo's, and I've eaten plenty. They just don't have near the same psychological lure as opiates.

 

[DexterMeth]

Imagine having a WD from opiates AND benzos at the same time.

 

[HeadyNuggets]

I imagine that would include massive anxiety.

 

[davesoviet]

Even if I dont use for 3 months I can still gobble 80-90mg of Oxycodone in a sitting. For I figure with me there is some "permanent" tolerence.

I've gone up to around 6 months without any opiates (or drugs asides alcohol and nicotine, period).

My opiate tolerance seems to be permanently outrageous. However, the one tolerance that does lower significantly is my tolerance to histamines. Even if it's been months since using opiates and I can't seem to use enough to really get high, I will itch so badly that I'll end up making myself bleed from scratching.

 

[B9]

Oh yes remember it fondly[not] i reckon i was tired ,listless physically drained etc for about 4 months, in fact i got so depressed that i started to do gear again, although there was an outside factor which was contributing significantly to the depression,that said life seemed a weary struggle day after day.So i can't give you a finish date for this"secondary withdrawl"scenario but a few months at least .I believe that the length and severity of the addiction is a big factor in the length and severity of the symptoms.

 

[Tongue]

SYNCHROJET-bro, go on METHADONE maintenance, have them dose you at 150 mgs a day for a few yeas, and then stop COLD TURKEY, and then tell me if it is just UPLEASANT...i have seen someone kick a methadone habit like this, and it was painful for me to see them like that, so fort you to jus say its EASY kicking opiods compared t benzos is just lame...im not doubting that benzos suck ass when kicking, but to say that it makes opiod withdrawal look easy is just overboard...i think it comes down to the indivdual...mysef, i have taken bags and bags of valiums/xanax over the years, had xtremely cheap supply, and neve had a habit, not even an inkling of dependancy..my lure are the opiods...like i said, we all handle withdawals/pain/anguish differently, so...

also, im curious, u know that sever depression that sometime accompanies opiod withdrawal, is this basically the same way a clinically depresed person feels?if so i feel for them!!

 

[swybs]

who knows--but it seems neverending...

I used for many years, and while the last couple months (10+) seem to have been me attempting to quit, I can honestly say that I think that I am there. I use bupe occasionally, though I feel Itchy Skratchy's posts (I think it was him or her) that the stomach cramps are pretty harsh from WD. To be honest, I can't tell you how long, since I am open to other drugs to attempt to offset the pure depression, tiredness, etc.

Another poster mentioned the dark backlog of psych issues, after daily use for more than 9 years, I think it takes major readjusting to get back to normal (again, I am not there).

It is like everything, there are good times and bad. I honestly think that the bad times are what took me so long to get where I am at now (which, I agree, is no where near perfect, but for me it is like nirvana--not the band). Unfortunately, the bad times hit me like multiple rain drops, but I actually welcome them because they are helping to prepare me with everyday life in the future. Simply put, opiates are the easiest defense mechanism one can reach for, once they have for looong periods of time.

Now, I have gone on a few vacations and tried to allow myself some opiates, only to feel unfulfilled and wasteful. And, while I never was hooked on H, I can attest to having had a very serious pill addiction.

But, yea...it is day by day. And really, if--in a perfect world--everything goes good and you haven't destroyed your life (and have to face repercussions), it can be done. Me, I am done with the ball and chain. I am done with the waking up and feeling like shit--the times when I might be tight in the pocket but need to score and thus fall into poor judgement behavior. I don't know--it feels like an awakening and it is hard to explain. I actually, just until a couple weeks ago, had oxy 80mgs laying around and didn't even think to use them. My biggest fear was getting over this and having something traumatic happen--eg, loss of a parent or loved one--and falling into it again, so I try and make myself as aware as possible about all the repreccusions.

I also think that, after a certain number of years, a portion of users get to a junction that I am at. When I said I tried to quit 10 months or more ago, that is only dedicated attempting to quit. I actually had prolly had the idea in the back of my head for 2-3 years before that, but always made crazy, I mean crazy, justifications for my actions (eg, hard day, difficulty with friends, fight with loved ones). My newest aid (and oldest, since I used this since I was very young), is to remember that someone, somewhere, always has it worse and I have no justification for numbing the pain, when someone, somewhere else is 1000 times worse off with no support or anything. I guess it boils down to thinking about the positive things you have going in on your life and embracing them (in an almost corny, yet effective way).

so, ending ramble, remember and constantly embrace the positive...it can always be worse...and, let's be honest, a bunch of us went this route because we suffered from one form or another of depression BEFORE we started abusing drugs...maybe this state we are reentering is simply forgotten standard fare, but now we have to deal with it in positive ways....


edited to add--I hope this doesnt sound like an antidrug rant--I am 100% prodrugs, just not pro me being addicted....

swybs

 

[edarrin]

so, ending ramble, remember and constantly embrace the positive...it can always be worse...and, let's be honest, a bunch of us went this route because we suffered from one form or another of depression BEFORE we started abusing drugs...maybe this state we are reentering is simply forgotten standard fare, but now we have to deal with it in positive ways....

This is very true. In my experience it seems as though those that end up using chemicals destructively:
a) didn't start out that way
b)usually have some emotional baggage they haven't dealt with yet and it often predates their addiction. In other words , there is a reason people use. If it becomes a coping mechanism then they stop learning how to cope with out the use of their drug of choice. That is where the 12 step groups can come in handy. I used AA to get sober before as I had to relearn how to live. How to recognize and deal with my feelings as they are without the use of chemicals. Not easy...but doable

Personally, I was/am so wrapped up in my own shit that I often forget the needs of others. And I have to work to keep a positive attitude and to be grateful for what I do have.

 

[HeadyNuggets]

Swybs, very well said, I agree 100%. Its very easy when things get shitty to say fuck it and go score, but inevitably this leaves you in an even worse position. I used for five years, quit for 8 months, then started using only occasionally, yeah right! Before long (a couple days) I could use as much as I used to before I quit. The tolerance never goes far away.

Now I still fight with this on again off again bullshit. When I am clean awhile I automatically assume I can use occasionally without repercussions, even though I know I am wrong. And when I stay clean really long (months) I begin to have intense, haunting dreams, calling me back to the abyss. I guess I will fight with this the rest of my life.

I have done many many other drugs with no problems. What makes opiates so different? Who would've thought it?

 

[DexterMeth]

I have done many many other drugs with no problems. What makes opiates so different? Who would've thought it?

yep. That's the strange thing about heroin/opiates. It's not even that great of a drug...but it keeps calling your name...even in your dreams.

 

[Tongue]

^yep, i wonder what is the true "cause" behind the crazy relapse rate with OPIODS...from all ive read and heard, im starting to think it must have something to do with

1-person who had lower than normal opiod/endorphin levels to begin with, even before using drugs, therefore once they found opiods, they felt "normaL" or fully fuctional..i have spoke to way too many people who have said this(im this way as well), not that opiods put me in a dreamland every time i took them, but they allowed me to enjoy life more, i functioned BETTER while on the, and felt normal on them..
2-people who use opiods for extended periods of tie have PERMANENTLY suppressed their natural endorphin/opiod levels, so therefor no mater how long they stayclean, they NEVER feel normal, thus they keep going back to whichever opiod...

surely there must be research/studies done on long term opiod uers and their natural chemical makeup...

 

[swybs]

^^^ the crazy thing is I used more for the "normal" feeling as opposed to the nod. I suppose this is why H never appealed to me as much as some of the less strong opiates (like oxy). Stranger yet, I would dose throughout the day, but always low (relatively) doses, so as not to be completely gone but to feel "normal" I could dwell on this forever, as I imagine I will--fucking shit. But, tongue is right--you could put unlimited coke, e, speed, etc in front of me but I would show restraint....opiates, on the other hand...well...enough said.

However, I think a turning point occurs when the bad outweighs the good (as heady said)--the crazy thing is that EVEN when this happens, the mind (and I categorize most BLers in OD as intelligent, which makes it harder) comes up with the craziest justifications. ahhh, soooooo tired of this. Regardless, I am happy to report that I am still not going that route...

swybs

 

[Tongue]

i agre SWYBS, i ws the same way wth OPIODS..i was very responsible user, only used enuff to affect me in a positive manner and that was it..now, when i hit the iv heroin, that was another story..i didnt enjoy the high as much as lighter opiods but the addiction seemed 10 times as intense...

 

[kapheen']

I'm curious as to whether or not one could avoid or trade the post with-drawl symptoms for something else. I just recently came off of 9 months of methadone use. And after the with-drawls finally stopped (over a month of with-drawls). I felt good for about a week, then I started feeling like complete shit. So I've been using very small doses of hydrocodone and oxycodone, not to get high, but rather for a mood boost. I'm maintaining sobriety and not feeling like an absolute zombie. I figure if I can keep this up for another month and when I do actually stop completely I wont suffer the post with-drawl symptoms to the same severity as I would have from a 200mg methadone habit.

I don't know how this is going to work, but hopefully to my benefit.

I'm not using every day. 1-2 times a week. It keeps me from feeling like ass and I'm no longer addicted to any point where I experience any physical or mental with-drawls.

I'm doing very well, in my opinion. I just hope this works like it seems it should.

I'm curious as to what people think about this idea, as long as I can keep maintaining like this. It's been close to two months since I've got high. And, honestly, it doesn't bother me one bit. I've come to a point where I feel the opiate/opioid high isn't all that great. It dulls everything in life, emotions, social activity, motivation, SEX!!. And I used to love getting a nice piece of ass. I really feel as though it just doesn't do it for me any longer.