The Big and Dandy Scale Thread (First wave - archived 10-31-07)

[Morninggloryseed]

This forum is only going to give out accurate and safe information.

The only acceptable means of using things like 2C-E, 2C-P, 5-MeO-DMT, and other really potent chemicals is a scale accurate to one-milligram (.001) for weighing out individual dosages. And that goes for most of these pure psychedelics you guys are mentioning.

A scale accurate to two-milligrams (.002) is acceptable for weighing individual dosages of weaker psychedelics, but for ones like 5-MeO-AMT and even 2C-E...one should weigh out 50mg or so at a time, and disolve that in water.

As for any other scale (.010 and worse); they are not acceptable for weighing individual dosages of any psychedelics except some of the weeaker ones like BDB, DXM, ibogaine, MBDB, methylone, and mescaline. The only acceptable use is for weighing out large quantities like one-gram at a time, and then using volumetric measurement.

No other means are safe and acceptable. I'll leave this open to see where it goes, but I'm not going to allow people to post unsafe methods such as eyeballing and using .01 scales for weighing out individual dosages.

I'll also post a PM I wrote to someone else a few nights ago who was asking me the same question. It's has some (what I think) is good information.

There are some reckless and uninformed people that will tell you to eyeball it, or use the 'graph paper" method, or such and such. But no matter what anybody says, these methods are not safe or accurate and I will not allow bad advice to flourish on the forum. The crystal size, and general volume, of different chemicals not only vary, but different batches of the same chemical will also vary in volume and/or crystal size! It's not always a purity issue, but rather the speed in which something is crystalized at, and the solvent used to crystalize it.

With 2C-B, 2C-E, 2C-I, 2C-T-2, 2C-T-4, ethocin, iprocin, 5-MeO-DiPT, 5-MeO-DMT and many, many more that I just have not tried yet myself (like 2C-P, 2C-T-21, the DOx series, the Ganesha series, 5-MeO-alpha-MT, 5-MeO-MiPT, and countless others); I can tell you that every single milligram, and less than a milligram with some of them like LSD or DOB, will make a noticable difference in the intensity.

Some personal examples...

At 8mg, 5-MeO-DMT gives me the most blissful and meaningful trips one can imagine, or at least it has twice now. But at 10mg, I had a black out and don't remember a thing. Same thing happened to my girlfriend. So a milligram (.001g) scale is a must if you want to be as safe as possible. One really need a scale accurate to .001 for all pure psychedelic compounds except maybe ones active only at 100mg (.1g) or so, or for materials that are active at less than 3mg like many of the DOx members, or LSD.

Another is 2C-E. 16mg was ungodly intense. Then I scaled it up to 20mg, and the trip was TWICE as intense. I'm not exageratting and both times the material was accurately weighed. I even have a reference weight set to double check my scale. It contains 1mg, 2mg, 5mg, 10mg, 50mg, 100mg, 500mg, 1g, 5g, 10g, and 20g. And the scale is always accurate to the "T" (whatever that means) so I am confident when I weigh somethign out that I am taking what I think I am.

Milligram scales (good ones) are around $1000, but you can get away with (I manage to) a scale accurate to two-milligrams (.002) if you are willing to use volumetric measurements for some of the more potent compounds. I use a Tanita-1210 and you can find these on ebay for $150.

Man, take my word. If you are going to play around with pure psychedelic compounds active at 50mg or less, then you need to buy a scale like this. It's simply stupid and irresponsible not too. And if you had the money to buy these chemicals, then you can come up with the money for a special device that will allow you to use such things in the safest manner possible.

Please use your brain and heed the words of an experienced individual who has done a lot of experimentation. Remember, a scale accurate to .001 (one-milligram) means that a pile of powder that reads .008g or 8mg could really be 7mg or 9mg. A scales "accuracy" rating really is refering to how much the scale could be "off by" or accurate to. A scale accurate to 1mg can be +/- 1mg each time you use it.

My Tanita 1210 is accurate to .002g (2mg) so when I have a pile of powder that reads, say, .014g (14mg) is could really be 12mg or 16mg. For this reason; when I am working with a potent drug like 2C-E I usually weigh out 50mg and add it to 50ml of water. And I dose it with a syringe. That way it's much more accurate than if I just weighed me out a single 14mg dosage. Do you understand? I'll be happy to clarify if not.

If you can't afford a .001g or .002g scale, you can probably find a scale accurate to .01g, which is 10mg, for $60/new or less on ebay. This will allow you to weigh out, say, 200mg and it will only "be off" by 10mg or so. This is acceptable if you plan on weighing out at least 100mg or more at a time and adding that to water or alcohol. It's better than nothing.

But it is not acceptable for weighing out single dosages of potent materials because it can be off up to 10mg! Taking an extra 10mg of 2C-E would make a HUGE difference. Again, 4mg doubled the effects! 2C-E and many other materials have weird dose/response curves.

Now if you weight out 100mg with a .01 scale, then it will only be off 10mg in either direction. So a dose from a solution made with 100ml of water would only be off by 10%. So if you tried to take 10mg from the solution, you might have 9mg or 11mg. There is a big difference between 9mg and 11mg but it is better then eyeballing!

But I don't know. If you are serious about experimenting with exotic psychedelics, then invest the money in the scale. If you are just looking for a high, then stick with mushrooms, LSD, DMT, or mescaline. Some psychedelic which is known to be safe. Leave the odd-ball psychedelics to the oddballs like me who are willing to be guinea pigs.

Feel free to ask for any further help.

Good luck

MGS

 

[djskrat]

can any1 provide feedback on the gempro 50? looks perfect for a way reasonable price.

 

[genaro]

well,well,well...see the search engine ? I guess you don't...I believe it's a great tool for searching. You're the one ! You can use it ! %)

 

[VictorBorge]

He should do a search, but I'll say here anyway, Gempro is crap. Mine is already half broken (through normal use for just a few weeks), and every time I use it I have to recalibrate it because the tray is wobbly. Wobbly! Stay away from this product. I'm saving up for a Tanita.

 

[kinetic]

I have a tanita 1210 and it's been excellent for my needs.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

I personally tested a Gempro 50, as well as another gempro model (forget the model number) and both were crap. They never gave a steady reading, and they never have an accurate reading. I would not use a gempro for anything except weighing out 100mg or more of something for volumetric measurement.

 

[Meo_dmster]

If its a good, calibrated scale, then a bouncing measurement means that what is on the scale is between the readings. I don't know much about your model, but with some of the lower resolutoin scales, you can actually time how much time it spends on the high and low reading and extrapolate what is actually on the scale. I don't have any personal experience with your scale, so I can't say if I would trust methode too much. But in summery, if its bouncing between 8mg and 10mg, it could be 9mg. But if you add enough to make it bounce back and forth between 10mg and 11mg, it could be 11mg.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

i notice that the reading will say 10mgs then drop down to 8mgs.
As i am pouring the powder out onto the scale. then back to 10mg and stay there. but every few seconds the reading bounces back down for a quick moment.

Here are two ways to get very precise readings. This comes from trial, error, and the fact that I have reference weights to check the true accuracy of the scale.

Do not put the weighing cup on the scale, tare (zero it out), and then dump the powder into the cup and use those readings. Why? Those reading won't be as accurate. As you dump powder on the scale, or use a scoop to remove extra; you are bumping around the scale which messes up calibration and it will not give an accurate reading.

Here is what I do and I have confirmed through checking with my reference weights that this is the way to go.

• Calibrate the scale.
  
• After calibration, press the tare button.
  
• Weigh the measuring cup (mine is 1.410 grams) and write that down.
  
• Slowly add some powder to the cup until you think you have the right amount.
  
• Press tare again on the scale.
  
• Weigh out the weighing cup+powder and get a calculator handy (either a mechanical one, or your head) and subtract the original weight of the weighing cup (before you added the powder) from the new figure. What you get is how much you have.
  
• Add or remove powder and repeat process as necessary until you have the desired weight. Make sure you tare every time you weigh the dish + powder to obtain an accurate reading.
  

Again, one must tare every time powder is added to the weighing cup of the scale, some is taken away, or the scale is in any way, shape, or form bumped or experiences vibrations (like that caused by dumping powder on it) because that messes up the calibration. Trust me.

Another thing I'll do when weighing out individual dosages of weaker compounds is:

• Calibrate, and tare the scale.
  
• Weigh one gelatin capsule and write that weight down.
  
• Open the capsule and add powder until you think you have the right amount.
  
• Tare the scale and the weigh out the capsule + powder. Obviously if you subtract the weight of the empty capsule from what you now read you will have the weight of the powder inside.
  
• Continue to add or remove powder as needed until you get the desired weight. And make sure you tare the scale each time before you weight out the capsule

While this may take longer, you can be sure you are getting accurate readings. And it is worth the extra minute or two if it means you will take the dosage you intend to. The "capsule method" is really good to use with cheaper/lower quality scales like the Gempro series as these scales become more accurate as the weight of what you are measuring goes up. Since OO capsules weigh just under 100mg, this will help ensure a better reading that if you were just weighing out, say, 14mg of something.

Does this make sense? I'll be happy to clarify.

 

[VictorBorge]

^^ Great tips, thanks. I hadn't considered the fact that the vibrations of dumping the powder directly onto the scale would screw up the reading.

 

[Skrilla]

The only acceptable means of using things like 2C-E, 2C-P, 5-MeO-DMT, and other really potent chemicals is a scale accurate to one-milligram

Oh that's BS - a .002mg scale works fine for most anything. Yeah, maybe not 5-Meo-AMT - but 2C-E? Come on! Just measure 14mg when you're going for 16 and you're perfectly safe.


Oh and for whoever asked - the Gempro 50 is a GREAT scale. Both my friend and I have one, and have NEVER had a problem with it. Glad I bought it and wouldn't exchange it for anything else.

If you're on a budget and need a cheaper scale that works great, get the Gempro 50.

^^
Just my opinoin

 

[john mason]

Isn't a 0.01g scale ok for DPT though?

 

[Skrilla]

Isn't a 0.01g scale ok for DPT though?

For DPT? Others I'm sure will tell you no - but I say yes. As long as you're absolutely sure you can handle up to 10mg more than you think you're getting. Some people have even mentioned that eyeballing DPT is not that bad, compared to other chemicals. (NO, don't eyeball it)

But a .01g scale is fine for DPT - unless your dosage is 20mg and you can't go over that or you'll freak out.

Again, just my opinion.

 

[X. Torris]

im sure not all of you have milligram scales (which start at like $800)

Anyone who has the disposable income to purchase research chemicals can sure as hell afford even the most rudimentary scale to keep them from poisoning themself (and sadly, others as well)....and there are numerous places online where you can get a decent scale for less than a couple hundred bucks.

The best deal I've ever seen was an used but accurate balance accurate to 0.2 mg on eBay. Total cost w/shipping at end of auction: $35.00. The deals are out there. Try searching for "analytical balance".

 

[Skrilla]

^^^yup, good point! They can be found for MUCH cheaper than $800.

---------------------------

EDIT:

Oh that's BS - a .002mg scale works fine for most anything

No offense MGS, I didn't mean to sound like an asshole - that's just what I think - I'm not trying to argue, in fact, I value your opinion more than you think

But when it comes to scales, we don't quite meet eye to eye and that's fine with me.

Maybe for those more sensetive than I am, a more accurate scale is a good idea. I'm just a hardhead with most everything, so it doesn't matter to me if I'm a couple mg's off, even with something like 5-Meo-AMT. But for more sensitive people, you're probably right. The fact is though, many don't have money for .001g scale, and at $150 the Gempro .002g is a good deal, and MUCH, MUCH better than eyeballing, or whatever other crazy methods people come up with.

 

[kizinja]

Would it be fare to say that the

BARE MINIMUM

is for the scale to measure 1/10th of the compounds intended dose?
ie, 2C-I dose at 20mg requires a bare minimum .002g scale.

When I'm not doing volumetric measurement I always measure doseages UNDER by the scales error

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Oh that's BS - a .002mg scale works fine for most anything. Yeah, maybe not 5-Meo-AMT - but 2C-E? Come on! Just measure 14mg when you're going for 16 and you're perfectly safe.

Well for me, my friends, and many people who have made reports on the net; every 1mg of 2C-E makes a huge difference in response. And 2C-E has a very unliniar dose/response curve. I realize you claim to take 20mg and feel little. But my 20mg trip was stronger than any LSD trip, and I've gone over the 500ug with LSD. 20mg of 2C-E got into 5-MeO-DMT space. And that 20mg trip was twice as intense as my 16mg trip. You want to be as accurate as possible when weighing out 2C-E, and especially something like alpha-O-DMS, 5-MeO-DET, and 5-MeO-MiPT. These are all active at below well 6mg. I hear a good dosage of 5-MeO-DET is .5mg to 1mg at most. Beyond that, and you get toxic effects.

Now I'll agree, a .002mg works fine for most anything. I use one myself. But after my first 2C-E trip, in which was in 16mg and blew me away WAY harder than I had dreamed it ever would; I've taken to weighing out 50mg at a time, and dumping that in water and dosing that way instead of weighing out individuak dosages and taking the chance of being off 2mg. A scale accurate to .002 works for just about anything. But for psychedelics as potent as alpha-O-DMS, 2C-E, 2C-I, 2C-P, 2C-T-21, and others, one is best to not ever use it for weighing out individual dosages. Especially things like 2C-P and 2C-T-21 where the overdose level is not much higher than the psychedelic level. And that goes double for alpha-O-DMS and 5-MeO-DET.

Oh and for whoever asked - the Gempro 50 is a GREAT scale. Both my friend and I have one, and have NEVER had a problem with it. Glad I bought it and wouldn't exchange it for anything else.

If you're on a budget and need a cheaper scale that works great, get the Gempro 50.

We discussed this before. I've personally tested two Gempro models (the 50, and I forget the other model number) with my reference weights, and it's not a very good scale. Also, a few other BLers who own one have agreed with me in that it's a crappy scale. Very prone to rolling (will go from one reading to another every second) and just not accurate for small amounts.

It is of course, better than nothing. But I would not use it at all unless I was weighing out 100mg of something to dissolve in water. Considering I saw a Tanita 1210 for $150 on ebay the other day, I'd say just wait around until one shows up there.

 

[Skrilla]

We discussed this before. I've personally tested two Gempro models (the 50, and I forget the other model number) with my reference weights, and it's not a very good scale. Also, a few other BLers who own one have agreed with me in that it's a crappy scale. Very prone to rolling (will go from one reading to another every second) and just not accurate for small amounts.

Yeah we have discussed this before - and just like I said last time, my friend and I BOTH have one, and haven't had a single problem with it. Tested it with many reference weights as well.

and it's not a very good scale

Please differentiate between your opinion, and actual fact.

 

[Psilo707]

I have been using a .002g scale for months, weighing out substances such as 2C-I,2C-E, and 5-MeO-DMT. I can not remember a time when a .001g scale would have benefitted me any more than my current tanita. Myself and my friends can handle any fluctuation of +/- 1 mg. It's no problem if im less than 2 mg 'off'.

The best deal I've ever seen was an used but accurate balance accurate to 0.2 mg on eBay. Total cost w/shipping at end of auction: $35.00. The deals are out there. Try searching for "analytical balance".

What the hell is anyone going to use a .2 gram scale for? (i know you didnt mean .2 mg... that would be equivalent to .0002g, which is over $10,000)
That's useless info. heh

 

[Skrilla]

What the hell is anyone going to use a .2 gram scale for? (i know you didnt mean .2 mg... that would be equivalent to .0002g, which is over $10,000)

Um, I bet he did mean .2MG - and they can be found affordably at several places.

I saw a .01MG scale go for less than $200 once on an auction site. You can still find them.

 

[VictorBorge]

There are $1200 vintage lab scales with .01mg (milligram) accuracy or better, going on ebay right now for $100, some as little $20. That's Twenty dollars.

If you don't mind dealing with a big 30 pound thing the size of a TV set that probably needs some professional calibration. It's less a question of budget and more a question of how much equipment you want to deal with.

Me, I'm fine with a pocket sized digital 2 milligram scale that I can keep discreetly in a drawer, rather than a giant machine that advertises to all and sundry visitors that I am, inexplicably, an "amateur chemist".