Advice Needed - Cypramil & MDMA

Advice Needed - Cipramil & MDMA - Updated

Today i started a course of Cipramil.

One 20mg tab was eaten at approx 11am, effects started within an hr or so, buzzy, light headed - kind of like the build up you get before you start rolling.

This afternoon i downed a couple or rum and cokes, this has left me feeling a bit moody. Tonight ive been given the opportunity to have a white mx for a friends birthday.

Ive been rolling for a while and have heard positive things about the use of Cipramil for serotonin depletion, I do not intend on rolling often and am aware a two day break before and after rolling is required while on a drug such as Cipramil.

There is no way in hell i intending on dumping a full pill, with the state im in i know it would be too much. BUT...

Would i be pushing the limits by having a couple of lines of the mx? This is day 1 on the Cipramil and i can feel its effects, would a line or two be a really really bad thing to do? I know i shouldnt be a pig and just not have the mx, but you know... *insert list of excuses here*

Any info would be hugely appreciated...

Thanks guys...

let me first just say that if you have just started cipramil today, the next week is going to be very moody and sleepy and perhaps confusing. Some people it doesnt bother, most people feel icky and some feel rotten. I wouldnt suggest taking a pill tonight as it may have an adverse, or more likely multiplying effect on the cipramil and make the next week even more nasty.

In about 2 weeks time MDMA should not work at all, unless you are one of the lucky few who seem to be able to roll while on an SSRI.

Best to search for some info on the antidepressants FAQ, That will help you make a more informed decsion, but personally i would pass up the pill, just for the sake of your head.

Andromeda

Even after taking only 1 Cipramil the effects of MDMA will be diminished as SSRI's like Cipramil have a greater affinity fpr the serotonin transporter than MDMA does. Personally, I wouldn't bother.

As for taking MDMA during a course of Cipramil, stopping Cipramil for two days is not adequate to allow the full effects of MDMA. That idea comes form people who assume that all you have to do is wait for the metabolites of the drug to leave your body. Cipramil's half life is around 30 hours, hence the notion that 2 days is enough.

All is explained here: FAQ: Antidepressants and Recreational Drugs (long!) and
SSRI's and Ecstasy: The Final Word (Hopefully)

How it all turned out

I was really nervous which probably didnt help the overall night but oh well.

I started by crushing one whole mx and railing a small line - it felt really pathetic, however, i just wanted to be carefull. I found my head ticking over second by second, analyzing how the line was making me feel, bah what a joke. Rolled up the rest of the powder, wrapped in tally-ho, bombed.

40 mins - Felt a little relaxed, nothing compared to those around me who had their eyes rolling all over the place. Started getting jealous. Ate another half, waiting, waiting, another half - started feeling quite speedy, clenching my jaw bad.

2 hrs later - relaxed, still not peaking, just really spacey. Had some nitrous which rocked, unfortunatly, after a few bulbs i started getting a headache. Ahhh...eat another pill.

1 hr later - Nothin much happening at all, I can feel the 'e' inside, it wants to go burko but it FUCKING WONT..grrr More nitrous, headache worse, REALLY SPACED...

Went clubbing soon after that, very anxious, not having much of a good time at all, feeling like ive had a small amount of speed. Angry that the night had turned out like this.

9+ hours after ingestion - couldnt sleep, wanted to keep on the move but at the same time felt very exhausted and was unable to find anything to do that wasnt 'boring'. Everything i tried to do to keep myself occupied seemed boring and a waste of time. Sleep seemed almost impossible, others passed out without a problem. A thousand thoughts were rushing through my head at once and anxiety and frustration stayed present throughout. Eventually i fell asleep for around three hours, woke up feeling alert and really spaced.

That afternoon - Ate half a cipramil, oddly enough after about an hour i felt quite calmed. Went for a coffee with friends, crowds were a little scary yet manageable. Ate late afternoon for the first time in 24 hours, food made my heart race like it has never before, it was awful. Sleep was again difficult yet achieved after about 20 minutes.

The next day - work - Awoke feeling a little scatty. Ate one whole cipramil. Feeling great after an hour, work passed without a problem, tired in the afternoon, slept fine.

The following few days i have been having one whole tablet a day. Work has been amazing and i have been feeling really great inside. I certainly feel different and do not believe this is a placebo effect.

I have read through the above links (thanks for searching!) :D And am more aware of the SSRI situation.

Concern has set in regarding the change these drugs are going to make, will rolling ever be the same again?
I have been on the cipramil now for 5 days, does anyone have an idea how long it will take for them to cease working if i was to cease taking them tomorrow? If the half life of the drug is 30 hours, how long until the effects stop working on the brain completly?
Will my next roll be stronger due to a having a higher level of seratonin?

The whole scenario started when i had the day off work and needed to get a medical certificate for not attending.
A few months earlier i had discussed a course of cipramil with my familly docter of 20 years, he thought it may be an idea due to a few issues i had thought my teenage years. I told him i would come and see him when i was ready to take the step.
I was unable to get a medical certificate from my usual doctor and instead had to hunt around for an appointment elsewhere. Eventually i scored one with a new doctor, i went in and told him i had had an anxiety attack earlier this morning and couldnt make it to work (i was lying) and needed a certificate. He took my blood pressure twice (which was normal), told me i suffered anxiety due to depression and prescribed me a 6 month course of cipramil. He told me to take one a day for a month and then come see him again for five repeats. I was blown away. He was a total stranger.
I had not told him about my previous conversations with my familly doctor regarding SSRI's, no familly history - all i said was that i felt anxious, i work 6 days a week and he made the assumption that i was in need of SSRI's.

Should these sorts of things be happening to young adults?
I used to think the whole 'anti depressants handed out as lollies' thing was a bit of a wank, but now, fuck - its happening...

Thanks for letting me blab, any info on the questions relating to rolling would be great. Cheers.

^^ See what happens when you ask for advice and don't actually take heed of it. Hope you have learnt a lesson.

Well wazza some lessons have to be learnt and i would have thought that from the experience outlined above that its obvious a lesson was learnt, hence the request for a bit more info regarding rolling next time.

Personally i wouldnt have thought a moderator would lower themselves to do a 'see i told you so'...

thanks for your reply anyways...

As best as I can recall, with SSRIs the half-life of the drug is only part of the story - they begin acting as an SSRI right away, but the anti-depressant effect builds up over time.

From RxList.com

The single- and multiple-dose pharmacokinetics of citalopram are linear and dose-proportional in a dose range of 10-60 mg/day. Biotransformation of citalopram is mainly hepatic, with a mean terminal half life of about 35 hours. With once daily dosing, steady state plasma concentrations are achieved within approximately one week. At steady state, the extent of accumulation of citalopram in plasma based on the half-life is expected to be 2.5 times the plasma concentrations observed after a single dose.

Click to expand...

Meaning... it takes a week before you reach a steady level of cipramil in your system, so I would expect it to take AT LEAST a week for your body to eliminate an accumulated dose, and longer before your brain starts to get used it.

Also of interest - in vitro studies of citalopram show that it can inhibit some liver enzymes, such as CYP-2D6, -1A2, and -2C19... however this is not apparently evident in vivo.

BigTrancer

liv3parts: One thing struck me from your post. You asked "Will rolling ever be the same again?" Well the answer is yes and no. No it won't be will you are on the SSRI's, but you are not going to be on the for the rest of your life.

Why not put MDMA aside for the time beingwhile you get your head sorted out, and save it up for later in life when things are better? I know the temptation is to want everything now, but I'm also sure you know that for almost everybody MDMA can only be taken for a c ouple of years at most before the magic goes. Why not leave those couple of years till you don't need SSRIs, and your head is in a better place to deal with things anyways?

Feel free to ignore this advice, it would be bloody hard to actually do, I know I couldn't have, but it did just occur to me while reading your experience. Frankly I wish I had gotten into MDMA a little later in life, when I coud have enjoyed perhaps more...

SSRI's take weeks to exert an anti-depressant effect. So any mood lift you are feeling now is most likely placebo effect. But don't worry about that - in trials of anti-depressant's vs. placebos, about 60% of those on the anti-depressant's improve, while about 45% people on placebo improve. The placebo effect in pharmacotherapy for depression is well recognised. I figure it doesn't matter what is actually working, as long as something is.

It is true that SSRI's are given out very readily. This is because they are relatively safe medicines, they aren't very expensive, and because GP's are being educated about the need to treat the "high prevalence mental illnesses" (ie: depression and anxiety) more aggressively these days. Traditionally, these illnesses have been associated with problems like decreased functioning, and increased morbidity, so it is now thought best to treat them as early as possible to reduce these issues.

Having said that, the little info you give suggests maybe SSRI's aren't quite what you need. Alhough SSRI's are fairly safe, they are intended for specific disorders (major depression, anxiety disorders, obsessive compulsive disorder) and should IMHO, be used only if these problems interfere with functioning. If your problem doesn't interfere with your daily life, maybe some counselling/therapy would be a better way to resolve your isssues. Don't get me wrong, SSRI's are right for many people, and maybe they are right for you, but if your problem is not biological, then SSRI's won't cure it and you may find the issues reamin once you eventually stop treatment.

in my experience it takes about a week for the effects of cipramil to wear off. but cipramil isn't the kind of medication that you just want to stop taking all of a sudden as doing that plays havoc with your emotions and your head. if you plan on taking cipramil for a while (i.e. over a month or two) you need to decrease your dosage slowly until you can stop taking it completely.