• 💊 OTHER DRUGS 💊 Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Notable Threads 1 Notable Threads 2
    Dangerous Combos Addiction Support
    Emergency Services Benzo Guide v.1
    Addiction Stories Scary Case Studies
    Biology, Pharmacology & Drugs 101
  • Select Your Topic Then Scroll Down
    Alcohol Bupe Benzos
    Cocaine Heroin Opioids
    RCs Stimulants Misc
    Harm Reduction All Topics Gabapentinoids
    Tired of your habit? Struggling to cope?
    Want to regain control or get sober?
    Visit our Recovery Support Forums

Bupe Suboxone vs Subutex

M

MyronPecz

Greenlighter
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
15
I have a few quick questions that I have went back and forth with when discussing this topic with my friends.

Is it true that it's the actual buprenorphine (not the naloxone) that causes you to not be able to feel other opiates? Me and my friends were always under the impression that it was the naloxone that blocks the affects of other potential opiates, and not the actual buprenorphine. My friend has been switching to Subutex for maintenance in believing that it won't block norcs/oxys when he decides to splurge on them - but after doing some research it appears that the naloxone only blocks opiates when IV'd - is this correct? I hope I worded this well enough, thanks everyone.
 
Naloxones oral bioavailabilty is almost negligible, its more in place to discourage misuse ( IV). That being said, Ive ived many suboxone with no ill effects.

Buprenorphine has a very high binding affinity. This makes it so when bupe has binded to the receptors, other opiates arent able to bind.

In short, yes, bupe is what causes other opiates not to work. The argument between sub or tex generally revolves around side effects.


All that being said, all this information is widely discussed in many threads. Go read our bupe megathread for more information than you would even want.
 
um what? i have IV'ed suboxone more times then i can count. usually 5-10x a day! the naloxone didnt do shit.

tomayyto, tomahhhto, they are one in the same. anyone who tells you otherwise is ignorant.
 
So naloxone is basically bullshit and has no real effect? I've read a few places the naloxone was in place to prevent people from shooting suboxone. So, why is it in box then if it does nothing?
 
^^ basically marketing. So the drug companies can tell the great American public that they made suboxone abuse proof....

I think it's one of the biggest misinformation campaigns ever haha
 
As others have said, it's the buprenorphine that blocks the other opiates from working, so your friend will have to take a few days off from taking it if he wished for the norcos or oxy to work. You also have to consider that buprenorphine is very potent, so depending on the dosage that your friend is on it may actually increase his tolerance making the norcos or oxy harder to get high off of at his normal dosage. It's extremely difficult to get high off of hydrocodone after being on sub, and every 1mg of buprenorphine is equal to just under 30mg of oxycodone (1mg bupe = 28mg of oxycodone) so he can figure out where his sub dose stacks up to his usual oxy dose.
 
um what? i have IV'ed suboxone more times then i can count. usually 5-10x a day! the naloxone didnt do shit.
Click to expand...

On the flip side, every time I've IV'd suboxone I've experienced some degree of precipitated withdrawal. So this seems to vary from person to person. That first time when I shot my dose, after being reassured by bluelight that the bupe would overpower the naloxone, I ended up with an hour or so of sitting on the toilet, throwing up into a bowl (and all over the floor), followed by shivering violently in the shower for a while (with the occasional walk over to the toilet to puke some more stomach bile). Took 2 or 3 attempts, but I managed to get some valium and promethazine to stay down, and by 3 hours after pressing down the plunger I was ok, actually feeling a slightly stronger bupe buzz than normal (the valium probably helped) - unfortunately, having to clean up all the vomit somewhat killed that buzz.

I've experimented with doses as low as 0.5mg, and I still experienced (much less severe) symptoms of withdrawal (pupil dilation, joint ache, sweating, etc).

What's interesting is that I also occasionally would swear I feel slight precipitated withdrawal when taking my dose sublingually. Very slight, but I often find myself feeling a tiny bit worse before I feel better in the morning, and the constipation seems to be at it's weakest 10 - 20 minutes after I put the strips in my mouth. Maybe I'm just ultra-sensitive to naloxone (I know I'm excessively sensitive to the histamine effects of opiates, as an interesting aside).
 
I have had similar experiences with suboxone IV even in very low doses. It seems like the PWs take hold for about an hour before the bupe takes over.
 
Crankinit The precipitated withdrawal usually happen when you've done dope earlier when injected it makes the possibilitiy of precipitated withdrawal so much more likely than sublingual same with snorting them. A person may be able to sublingually take. a sub 4 hours after doing dope usually but if you inject the sub the person may have to wait more like 24 hours or so to avoid precipitated withdrawals. Which makes me think the naloxone does contribute to the precipitated withdrawals
Also you may have had a dirty hit
 
Last edited:
Crankinit said:
On the flip side, every time I've IV'd suboxone I've experienced some degree of precipitated withdrawal. So this seems to vary from person to person. That first time when I shot my dose, after being reassured by bluelight that the bupe would overpower the naloxone, I ended up with an hour or so of sitting on the toilet, throwing up into a bowl (and all over the floor), followed by shivering violently in the shower for a while (with the occasional walk over to the toilet to puke some more stomach bile). Took 2 or 3 attempts, but I managed to get some valium and promethazine to stay down, and by 3 hours after pressing down the plunger I was ok, actually feeling a slightly stronger bupe buzz than normal (the valium probably helped) - unfortunately, having to clean up all the vomit somewhat killed that buzz.

I've experimented with doses as low as 0.5mg, and I still experienced (much less severe) symptoms of withdrawal (pupil dilation, joint ache, sweating, etc).

What's interesting is that I also occasionally would swear I feel slight precipitated withdrawal when taking my dose sublingually. Very slight, but I often find myself feeling a tiny bit worse before I feel better in the morning, and the constipation seems to be at it's weakest 10 - 20 minutes after I put the strips in my mouth. Maybe I'm just ultra-sensitive to naloxone (I know I'm excessively sensitive to the histamine effects of opiates, as an interesting aside).
Click to expand...

The precipitated withdrawal didn't have much to do with the Naloxone. It had everything to do with the fact that Bupe's affinity for your brain receptors is much higher than whatever opiate you had in your system, which is why you go into PWs, the Bupe violently knocks off any other opiate you had present. If a person were to overdose on Bupe, Naloxone wouldn't save them. Because like other opiates, Naloxone's affinity for your brain receptors is lower than Bupe's. This is the reason Naloxone is useless in Suboxone. This also means that if you were shooting Subutex, you'd go into PWs, because Bupe is the active ingredient.
 
Crankinit The precipitated withdrawal usually happen when you've done dope earlier when injected it makes the possibilitiy of precipitated withdrawal so much more likely than sublingual same with snorting them. A person may be able to sublingually take. a sub 4 hours after doing dope usually but if you inject the sub the person may have to wait more like 24 hours or so to avoid precipitated withdrawals. Which makes me think the naloxone does contribute to the precipitated withdrawals
Also you may have had a dirty hit
Click to expand...

I hadn't taken any other opioid in months at that stage, and I know the difference between a dirty hit and precipitated withdrawal (never mind that I tried it multiple times with different doses over a period of months).

The precipitated withdrawal didn't have much to do with the Naloxone. It had everything to do with the fact that Bupe's affinity for your brain receptors is much higher than whatever opiate you had in your system, which is why you go into PWs, the Bupe violently knocks off any other opiate you had present. If a person were to overdose on Bupe, Naloxone wouldn't save them. Because like other opiates, Naloxone's affinity for your brain receptors is lower than Bupe's. This is the reason Naloxone is useless in Suboxone. This also means that if you were shooting Subutex, you'd go into PWs, because Bupe is the active ingredient.
Click to expand...

As I said above (and implied in my post, though I should have stated it outright), the precipitated withdrawal was from the bupe itself, not from another opiate. These experiments took place 3 or 4 months after I first went onto suboxone, and during those 3 - 4 months I had stayed compliant with my suboxone regime the entire time.
 
Crankinit said:
I hadn't taken any other opioid in months at that stage, and I know the difference between a dirty hit and precipitated withdrawal (never mind that I tried it multiple times with different doses over a period of months).



As I said above (and implied in my post, though I should have stated it outright), the precipitated withdrawal was from the bupe itself, not from another opiate. These experiments took place 3 or 4 months after I first went onto suboxone, and during those 3 - 4 months I had stayed compliant with my suboxone regime the entire time.
Click to expand...

In that case, I learned something new.
 
I'm on day 2 of heroin withdrawal (day 29 now, no subs... just to add, need to put in right place), still disconnected from reality; although the physical sx have subsided (but could care less about those it's the insomnia/anxiety lack of being able to find myself, get back to me, the person I am was.. and be semi comfortable just doing anything is absurdly difficult... senses still heightened... nor adrenaline spiked), and feel like I'm dying. Thank you for the info. I am to start on one of these before I completely go madd. I have not slept in 2 days, now coming day 7 hardly (and this is with depressant non addictive meds).

I post here as I can't figure how to post to my page... My brain is not working. :)
 
Last edited:
Well then I guess your just weird haha
Mabye you should be the poster boy for suboxone showing everyone yes it is abuse proof!!! Ha just kidding but never happens to me you may very well be sensitive to bupe do you get weird symptoms on high dose suboxone? Sometimes they are because of the naloxone in the sub not going well with the person cause they are allergic or sensitive to it. So I guess snorting one would do the same to you and if you swallowed the saliva with bupe and naloxone it could make you feel weird which would explain the feeling shittier before the dose fully kicks in.
 
I have shot suboxone and I had a horrible PWD that lasted roughly 1 hr before feeling OK. I think it has everything to do with how dependent you are on full agonist opiates. Bupe is special because it is a partial agonist, it means it is also a partial antagonist. If you're body's used to SUPER/PREMIUM UNLEADED (heroin/morphine/oxy/dilaudid/fent) and you put in some REGULAR LEADED (suboxone) it's going to make you sick because you're dependent on full agonist opiates not partial ones.
 
trainspotter10102 said:
Well then I guess your just weird haha
Mabye you should be the poster boy for suboxone showing everyone yes it is abuse proof!!! Ha just kidding but never happens to me you may very well be sensitive to bupe do you get weird symptoms on high dose suboxone? Sometimes they are because of the naloxone in the sub not going well with the person cause they are allergic or sensitive to it. So I guess snorting one would do the same to you and if you swallowed the saliva with bupe and naloxone it could make you feel weird which would explain the feeling shittier before the dose fully kicks in.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I suspect my body is at least somewhat more sensitive to naloxone than normal (as much as there is a normal). I also get some other weird symptoms from subs which I've mentioned in another thread.

I just make a point of putting this experience out there so people know that the ''bupe overpowers naloxone'' thing isn't universally true.
 
Crankinit said:
Yeah, I suspect my body is at least somewhat more sensitive to naloxone than normal (as much as there is a normal). I also get some other weird symptoms from subs which I've mentioned in another thread.

I just make a point of putting this experience out there so people know that the ''bupe overpowers naloxone'' thing isn't universally true.
Click to expand...

Yes it is. Not at all denying your experience, but it is literally INPOSSIBLE to have precipitated WD from buprenorphine itself. It's binding affinity is just too damn high.

And in any case, the dose of nalaxone is far too low to do anything. Hell, 0.5mg of nalaxone wouldn't even reverse high-dose methadone or the like.

Your reaction sounds more akin to a dirty hit, as mentioned. I'm not sure what it is though. But any time you IV buprenorphine(even subutex) you're pupils shall initially dilate. And many people become extremely nauseated from IV bupe.

Even I literally have to take antihistamines constantly, or the nausea is simply unbearable.

They're us also the unlikely possibility that perhaps with chronic sublingual administration, you actually have norbuprenorphine attaching to receptors, and maybe it being knocked off suddenly is unconfortable? Either way, it sounds like IV buprenorphine is not for you!!!

And PS, the half-life if nalaxone is only 60-90 minutes, and at the low doses present in Suboxone, the duration would likely be even shorter.
 
Remember also, that peak plasma levels from IV buprenorphine are 10-20x higher than sublingual(mean 15) and that is with a liquid solution! Imagine comparing it to a tablet, since a solution is at least 1.5x stronger.

I mention this because such a high plasma level for Someone used to sublingual use can be very intense, and could very well cause done side effects.

Actually if I go 48 hours or more without opiates, my pupils dilate, and I get extremely cold after I inject a large(er) dose of bupe. And without antihistamines, extreme nausea.

Throw in a mild sensitivity to nalaxone(unlikely but possible) it could very well explain your reaction. Remember that although nalaxone may not (appreciably) bind to Mu receptors, it is still in the bloodstream. And it actually does bind to SOME receptors, unless a very high dose of subby is IV'ed, though because nalaxone is an inverse agonist, and NOT an antagonist, that wouldn't cause any form of PWD.
But for myself, and the vast majority, IV Suboxone and IV Subutex are identical.
They may very well be for you as well, and the consensus says they are, but you won't know until you try.
 
I've had withdrawal effects from IVing too much subutex-- it's fucking awful and lasts for days. Be careful-- that shit binds like crazy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top