Jihad declared on Australia - Your Thoughts...

Well, listening to little johnny on the radio this morning talking about we have security measures etc in place for this, he didn't have a lot of confidence in his voice and I don't have a lot of confidence in him, so thats scary for me...
(just so you can get my initial view on this, I AM UTTERLY OPPOSED TO THE US's "war on terror" I think its totally hypocritical of them using terror to achieve revenge or whatever they want to call it or "saving the world from terror and fighting for freedom" which I think is absolute bullshit, I believe in peace and minimisation of human loss of life at all costs, plus I think the US government to be one of the most evil influences on the world over the past 50 years [ I acknowledge that the US wasn't the first to start sticking its fingers in the third world], but in my opinion the US gov is one of the major things wrong with the world, and what's worse is the people in it are blind to it all and support everything virtually 100% because people generally don't know what's good for themselves, only their narrow minded self interests.. and the us is best example hypocrisy in the world today)
I for starters think, despite our distance, we are an easy target for terrorism. we are a relaxed people and never had a threat like this, unlike England or France, who have counter terrorism measures in place for years because of IRA trying to get England and Algerians, and other assorted Africans after France. I think we have been foolish in the total military support we have given to the US, we could of handled it alot diplomatically better.. ie giving medical support etc. and not be Americans complete bumchums (we are not important on the world stage, and I think this is politicians attempt to make it seem like we are, when in fact we are becoming increasingly more irrelevant on the world stage) we could of offered more sensible support which we could sustain at less cost.
In the US new laws are being imposed giving the government the ability to covertly enter peoples houses with out them knowing, search, spy on them etc. also the ability to raid any house suspected, much like they raid any house suspected of being a "drug house"...... now we seem to copy the US in every other fucking thing, do we really want to this happen to our country ??? isn't it hypercritical having our civil liberties taken away to "preserve them"... would it be necessary ? or is the government just finding an excuse to tighten the chain further round our necks ???
Now saying that Australia will go to that is extreme and is a worse case scenario, but I believe in situation like this EVERYTHING should be considered.... this is nothing to be taken lightly (the tourist threat) and should we be taking steps to avoid being targets or should we be just trying to stop them b4 they get us?? (we are to blame for making ourselves a target out feel... I hope john Howard or Kim beazley get taken out.... when I saw Kim beazley yesterday speak out saying that the labor guy who said that America got attacked because of its foreign policy come backing to "bite them in the butt"... I lost ALOT of respect for Kim, now I understand that everyone has to suck up to America if your in politics in a western country, but it still disgusts me)
I'm not asking people to counter my arguments or anything... I'm just asking for your thoughts.... I for one know it can get hostile in arguments about this, because basically people either feel strongly about one way or the other, and it usually ends with stupid insults about intelligence etc. so lets try not to get into that....
these are just thoughts..
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Dont enter my floor space or you will "Get Knocked Da Fugk Out"!!!!..."and you know this Maaaaaaan"

Yeah and Mum has threatened to kill me a thousand times and never did.
I guess I just don't give a shit. If I worry then my quality of life is reduced, so I'm not going to.
If I die by some unkown act then my life is over but I guess it doesn't matter then.
And if I'm directly attacked then I'm gonna put up an almighty big fucken fight. But then and only then.
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Dancing, the eternal quest to mash my ankles into dust.

Stylin - I agree on some points..Specifically that the US has made some errors in the Past..But haven't we all...
To say that the US is the worst Evil of last 50 years.Puts them in with likes of Idi Amen,Pol Pot and Saddam Hussein..These regimes committed unspeakable atrocities on Human kind.....I don't think the US belongs
in that group of freaks......
Can you elaborate on what the US has done to cause all this Mayhem..??
I also pray for Peace......
BCR

baycity:
but the US funded saddam (until a conflict of intrest ie. oil in kuwait, they funded pinochet (who was responsible for 75,000 dead), they destroyed nicaragua, and MUCH MUCH more (suharto in indonesia)
did you see that artical about the school of america in south america that has trained the majority or south america's terriosts ???
do some research
its all very true

yeah i agree strongly with everything you said stylin.....
US have funded taliban all this time as well..... not only that.... they gave osama bin laden millions of dollars for fighting the russians on there behalf....
and now they are doing the same for the northern alliance who also have terrible human rights records and such and will undoubtedly cause major problems (i.e. wanting to wipe out anyone who is pro-taliban)
they helped create and support israel... the act of which has caused millions of people to lose their lives, same thing in kuwait, (george bush snr had a major conflict of interests in this (oil))....
as for the taliban declaring jihad on australia... didn't we declare war first? sending planes and troops all the way from australia to be deployed ON afghan territory is an ACT OF WAR..... they didn't do anything to australia?? yet we sent over troops to fight them???? they have every right to declare a jihad against us, we started it.

I have done some research....
Iraq and the US were allies for years...And the US supported Iraq's war on Iran as Iran was considered an Rogue terroist state....
But after the Iran contra affair. Saddam beleieved the US bretrayed his country and thus Saddam wanted revenge on the US....
So the The US stopped supporting Iraq a long time before the Kuwaiti invasion...
As for Pinochet....Well he was propped up by the US cause the Hardline Marxist Salvador Allende almost won the 1958 election..And Salvador was no Angel himself....And we today can see the results of communists regimes around the world....But we cannot dismiss the Horror of Pinochet..
Anyhow I could go on...But just remind ourselves of the Policies of our own governments back in the 50's.......Mmmmmm White Australia..........
BCR

i can't blame them for declaring jihad on us, considing how much support that fuckface howard has been pledging to the us...
that does make me feel... very... unsure... worried even...
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... "wisest is he who knows that he does not know" ... "someone prove i exist" ... asparagus? ... no more asterisk for me.

Seriously stylin, thats the biggest load of shite ive read in ages.. The us goverment is evil.. ok, yeah evil. *cough*
Im not even going to bother replying properly, just tell me, what they were ment to do, just let the terrorist do as they please... ???
Personally, i think they did the only thing they *may* have a chance of working.

chem: how is killing the answer? sure the US took a bit hit on s11, but it was just a retaliation for their past efforts. sending troops over isn't going to help the way the taliban people feel about the US, it's just going to strengthen it, and even if (as i think you want them to) they manage to slaughter every taliban supporter, that's just going to enrage another group. A sensable approach would have been to attempt to repair damage done, not throw bombs at it.
As for the Jihad on Australia, I don't blame them for it, just as (i think) the US government asked for s11, our government asked for this. It's certainly got me scared though. I like life, I wouldn't wish war on anyone.
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Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

chemical_night: so you dont agree with me, thats fine, it doesnt mean its bullshit
baycity: cool, that you did some research, but it wasnt simple as that... i know this is making assumption as well... but imagine the stuff that you just dont know about.... and i dont think the US deserve the benefit of the doubt
its all opinions here.... we dont need to go blasting other peoples for theirs, everyone looks into things at ceartin levels and not everyone has the same perspective on things or seeks different perspectives
i never said the US was evil
i implyed its goverment to be morally disgusting and im could crap onto you for ages, why i think australian goverments are disgusting... but then you'd get some people who would of thought white australia was great... just like people who support the war now... history will be the judge me thinks (assumption i know sorry... but hey )
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Dont enter my floor space or you will "Get Knocked Da Fugk Out"!!!!..."and you know this Maaaaaaan"

Heard another thing on the radio this morn that gave me the shits (hehe had me swearing in the car.. well more then usual.. well.. about something other then the norm anyways hehe).
A Labor politician (who's name escapes me) was 'ordered' to say a big 'sorry' for comments that he made to the likes of "The US armed Iraq (with bio-weapons in particular), trained Osama and armed his boys, and now they are copping it."
He was told to say sorry because 'what he said wasn't true yada yada yada' but the point is that I fucking hate how no-one can say that it is at least partially America's fault. Why is this not possible? Not only should it be possible, it IS true!
US did give bio/'normal' weapons to Iraq and then had to 'discipline them' and the same goes for the Taliban boys. I don't get how this cannot be seen as a reasonable basis to lay some blame on America for the shit they have now gotten everyone involved in.
Sorry was OT but had to vent...
-breathing HC.. breathing...-
HC

Why dont we set up concentration camps for muslims and gas then all and then drop a nuke on afghanistan? So simple a solution.....im surprised there arent any flaws in it

Paradoxically it's humour such as yours that make me want to investigate post-natal abortion.
BILL
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Sorry, but to say the us government is *evil* ....is bullshite. There is much more real evil in this world. Sure they often *do* put thought into who they help, so as to benifit them, but realy, why wouldn't you??
Why not offer a different way they could have dealt with the problem, instead of just saying their wrong??
And if u hadn't noticed the us government, has changed many times in the last 50 years, so you can hardly just group them all as the "evil us government".
Sorry i just have no problem what so ever with a military reaction, when an act of war was comitted S11. At least amercia been a civilised nation *trys* to keep civilian casualities at a minimum, rather than simply atttacking civilian targets as *the friendly but misunderstood terrorists* have.

The only thing I'm scared of is that this 'Jihad' will make Australians feel unsure about things. If they feel unsure about international affairs they are more likely to vote in the same conservative goverment, ie. 'fuckface' howard.

I had a little chuckle when I heard this...
Let the fuckers try, and then we'll see who wipes who out. Do they not realise they are pathetically outnumbered in this country? There's already a huge rise in attacks against muslims in this country, I'm not saying I support this, but imagine the increase in attacks against muslims if islamic terrorists start suicide-bombing our country? I honestly believe that there's more racists in this country ready to burn down a mosque than there are muslims, hell, I went to school with at least 100 of them.
We have nothing to be worried about people!
One thing that really, *REALLY* shits me, is the way the US let these Taliban representatives that declare this jihad shit live. If the US took these wankers out, then how would they declare a jihad on us? I mean, they may be living in Pakistan, but what ever happened to the good old days when the special forces dropped in, snatched these Taliban people, and they're never seen again???
Hang on, I think I've watched too many movies
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I think of my life as a series of sketches; each one funnier than the last

I hope...
that mankind will at length, as they call themselves reasonable creatures, have reason and sense enough to settle their differences without cutting throats; for in my opinion there never was a good war, or a bad peace.
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Nothing lasts forever.

Stylin and others - Regarding the US and the terrorist issue, it is of course easy to cite various occasions where the US government has carried out foreign policy initiatives that have done more harm to the world than good and brought about the deaths of shitloads of innocent people. What is harder to cite, however, are things the US has done that compare with the events of September 11. Remember that those terrorist attacks occurred without warning and were wholly aimed at killing as many innocent American citizens as possible – a task at which it succeeded to the tune of around 6,000. The planes were not aimed at military bases or other targets of a strategic military nature (although as ostensibly innocent as anyone else military people do assume certain risks when they sign up for service), nor were the attacks preceded by any “Do what we say or we’ll attack you – those are your options” warning. It is partly for these reasons that the “war on terror” has attracted such overwhelming mainstream support.
When the Cuban missile crisis happened in the 1960s, Kennedy's military advisers were pushing heavily for a surprise attack on Cuba. Robert Kennedy, however, peruasively argued that surprise attacks like the attack by the Japanese on Pearl Harbour are not what the US is about. If the US was in the habit of springing surprise attacks targeting the general population of foreign countries I too would be of the view that the US is now simply experiencing the backlash of its own evils but I do not believe such to be the case.
Also Stylin I get your point when you say it might have been more for Australia to provide ‘medical support’ to the US rather than send our armed forces over to the war zone. In my opinion it is, however, a naïve opinion that shows a lack of understanding as to what international relations of this type are all about. From a purely logistical perspective, in embarking on its war on terrorism the US does not need any resources (medical, military or otherwise) from Australia. The US is a colossal war machine with all the warships, bombs, fighter jets and medical supplies it needs. The US is calling on other nations such as Australia to provide military support as a way of enhancing the legitimacy of the war it has declared. George Bush Jnr et al know that in order to achieve their military objectives they need the continued support of the American public. By getting other countries involved the President can say to any critics of the war (and with some legitimacy) “Look, it’s not just my government that wants to blast these terrorists out of the ground, a whole bunch of other freedom-loving democratic countries agree with us and are fighting the war alongside us.” The request for support was aimed at meeting political objectives, not logistical goals.
If the US had wanted medical support it would have asked for it, but it didn’t – it asked for the support it felt it needed, and that was military support. Telling the US they can have medical support instead would have been like telling someone whose screaming for help while being violently assaulted, “No I won’t help you out by punching out your assailant but I tell ya what I WILL be a witness for you when this goes to court.”
Now I hope as much as anyone else that Australia is not retaliated against for our role in this war. But if God forbid we too are hit with a terrorist attack that will not change my opinion that it was appropriate for us to become involved. Just like the citizens of the US, we Australians are fortunate to live in a prosperous, relatively free country. But given the nature of the world and some of the whackos in it it’s inevitable that from time to time we will have to pay a price for our liberties. Personally I like that we have a cosy bond with the most powerful nation on earth (and I acknowledge that plenty of other Australians do not). If we want to keep that bond the only way to do it is to be in all the way – I don’t think we can say to the US “We like having you as an ally but when push comes to shove you guys are on your own – we’re not risking our people to help you out.” And yeah, I know the US has screwed us around on a whole bunch of things - no country with which we are allied will always do the right thing by us, just as we probably won’t always do the right thing by smaller countries that are allied with Australia. But at the end of the day we have to decide – are we in or out?
One aspect to the issue of Australian involvement that I think tends to get overlooked is the fact that, for the most part, our military personnel WANT TO be actively involved in the war. Our Navy, Army and Air Force spend a large proportion of their time training for combat situations like this. I know that if I’d spent, say, the last five or six years training for combat I’d be itching to put my training to practical use. These men and women didn’t join the armed forces because they have a fascination with training for a role they’ll never occupy.
One thing I’d like remind those who condemn the Australian government for sending our troops to war is that Howard would not have taken this step if it did not have the support of the Australian people. Remember we are in election mode right now and everything a politician says or does is about getting as many votes as possible on election day. I’m not saying this necessarily makes the decision a correct one, I’m just saying it’s a bit rough to point the finger wholly at the government if you disagree with what it’s done.
On the bigger issue, historically international politics has operated a lot like the business world. Just as companies fight for market share with the few biggest, most powerful players competing amongst themselves for domination of their market space, our world has been a place where the most powerful countries have exerted their power in a strategy designed to extend their reach and increase their dominance. Given all that it’s inevitable that one country will have a disproportionately heavy influence over world affairs. I don’t know about you people, but I am certainly glad it’s the US that has the most power in the world rather than Germany, Japan or (what was) the USSR. Does anyone out there think that the world would be a better place if one of those countries had emerged as today’s most powerful nation?
What I’d be interested to hear from you Stylin (and you as well MellowYellow) is what SPECIFIC actions (if any) you think the US should have taken in response the attacks of September 11. If Dubya’s strategy is not the best one to take, precisely what would be the best way for the US to have respond to the murder of 6,000 of its citizens?
By the way Stylin – I find it ironic that you are keen to avoid this thread turning into an exchange of “stupid insults about intelligence” when you have no reservations about characterising the US’s 250 million+ citizens (and in particular the members of its government) as simple﷓minded fools who don’t have the sense to realise that their way is the Wrong Way and that your way is the Right Way (viz your remark that “…the people in it [the US Government] are blind to it all and support everything virtually 100% because people generally don’t know what’s good for themselves…”) Oh how much better the world would be if people knew what was good for them! Alas, we average human beings just have to muddle through somehow, all the while lacking the insight and clarity that you obviously possess in joyous abundance.
I used to regard someone whose views were diametrically opposite mine simply as a person with a different perspective – not an ‘inferior’ perspective, not a ‘wrong’ opinion – just ‘different’. But I think I’ll take your lead from now on Stylin – the next time a big slice of the population (be it US, Australian or wherever) collectively expresses a strong political opinion that is different from mine I’ll just write it off as another case of stupid people once again not having the sense to know what’s good for them. If nothing else this will at least temporarily cover up my own insecurities and give me a feeling of pompous superiority that I otherwise wouldn’t have!!!
[This message has been edited by kookaburra (edited 02 November 2001).]

i think it was very sweet of them to declare Jihad, they've made a lot of people very happy.
I mean, i've been watching the media coverage in this country and every time they get an arab on a plane, or an anthrax coated letter the commentators are *screaming* about how "We Could Be Next".
Now that the Jihad has actually been declared, an' we're sending troops an' all, those poor souls on the telly won't feel so left out of all the fun Big Bro' America is having.
(The majority of this letter is humourous. Only the underlying bitterness is real)

Would prefer jb's jihad declared on Telstra
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"Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do"
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