Misc Kava reminds me of Marijuana

I am not speaking in terms of subjective effects.
I am referring to:
- its long history of use
- different strains of both plants are known for their cerebral dominant effects and/or physically dominant effects that are affected by:
- the many different alkaloids known as kavalactones in kava and the many different terpenophenolic compounds known as cannabinoids
- the relatively low toxicity of both substances
- the lack of cases alluding to a debilitating addiction caused by either substance
- the medically supported uses for treating certain and even similar ailments with both substances (i.e. anxiety, insomnia, inability to focus)
- lack of "euphoric" effects from users. While the benefits provided by these plants can be euphoric in that they help address an ailment or put one at ease, they are not inherently euphoric as with opioids.
While cannabis is clearly the more popular/well studied substance, I think they are both amazing substances that have some interesting similarities. I tried to be as specific as possible while typing this up because I feel that I am making a claim that some may view as outrageous. If any of the information I provided is factually incorrect, please let me know. I tried to study this as much as I could before posting.
Also, I hope this is in the right section. Mods: please feel free to move it if you feel another location is more suitable.

as does Kratom and many other beneficial plants used as medicine if we are going by the above stated guidelines..but what exactly is your question? I apologize if I missed it but I don't think I saw one

It wasn't really a question, I was just wondering if anybody else noticed these similarities and how people feel about them. Seeing as how kratom is a potent opioid agonist, I don't think we can assume it is non-addictive. I even believe it has documented cases of addiction. Kratom hasn't reached the point of opium in terms of extracting the active alkaloids. Opium is relatively safe in its most natural form, but a few minor alterations to it can turn it into heroin. I'm not attempting to speak out against kratom, for it has its uses, but just stating that it doesn't fit into the list of similarities.

Other Drugs is a harm reduction focus forum, so if you have questions regarding harm reduction, this thread will stay here in OD, however I don't see much HR material here, but that doesn't mean that others might see something I don't. Therefore, I'll let this thread stay open here in Other Drugs for the time being until the day comes / if the day comes where we find a better subforum so you can get better answers.

I personally didn't feel any correlation between Kava K. and Cannabis S. I mean sure they both can be relaxing based on the active ingredients, which of course with cannabis as many can tell ya, are extremely important and mean the difference between a relaxing, therapeutic, analgesic, etc experience and one of anxiety, paranoia, for some people I've even heard of hallucinations, due to a person who's not tolerant enough to be consuming a strain that has too much THC : CBD ratio, whereas the CBD-dominant strains of cannabis are the more desirable (to most, at least for medicinal users) as the CBD helps the most with analgesia, anxiolysis, desired effects in general etc.

I don't have much experience with Kava, likely because I have never found it to benefit me at all in any way, shape, or form.

Just as there are constituents in kava that can make the difference between a stimulated state of mind and the relaxing analgesic properties you so fondly speak of. I am always surprised when people claim to not have any effects from kava. I usually brush it off as them having likely only used the extracts available at the pharmacy. I suppose that maybe this is not the forum for me to be sharing such ideas.

It is said that compounds like yangonin in kava root have activity at the CB1 cannabinoid receptor, the same that THC interacts at.

I came here to criticize your comparison to Marijuana but then I read it was historical use

mypoorliver said:

I am not speaking in terms of subjective effects.
- lack of "euphoric" effects from users. While the benefits provided by these plants can be euphoric in that they help address an ailment or put one at ease, they are not inherently euphoric as with opioids.

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YOUR opinion. Mate I have done Kava about 100 times. One factor is you have to do it right, and have strong Kava. I have been to Fiji and drank 15-20 bowls of Kava with the villagers (in a local village). I also generally drink strong Vanuatu Kava, which is the best in the world.

I probably get more euphoric on Kava than I do ANY other substance I have tried (including Marijuana and Alcohol and opiates). Yes I have done opiates like Oxycodone (and in large doses like 80mg at once), and they make me relaxed but only slightly euphoric.

Also in Kava there are several psychoactive compounds, combine variation in the levels of these chemicals between different types of Kava with factors such as if your stomach is TOTALLY empty (it needs to be), method and frequency and dose of consumption, all make big differences and need to be fine tuned to get the effects you are after (in my case absolutely blissful, euphoria relaxation better than benzo's or anything). Also while good powdered Kava is reasonable, its not as good as high quality fresh Kava.

Cannabis doesn't destroy your liver- Kavakava does.

I know there are studies that say kava use without alcohol consumption doesn't harm the liver, but there are many better studies that say that it does. New Zealand is really the only 'first world' (whatever that means) country that deals with the long-term effects of Kavakava It definitely harms your liver, much like alcohol does...and it compounds the damage done by alcohol.

I usually drink the vanuatu kava on an empty stomach as well. I have a half pound of Fu'u sitting right next to me, and have tried many other strains. I just don't find it as euphoric as opioids. That's probably a good thing though. The only thing I haven't experienced is being able to visit a nakamal. I'm slightly jealous, as I love kava.

Which studies are you speaking of? Most of the cases of liver damage by kava have been determined to be idiosyncratic reactions. Even if it did destroy your liver, it wouldn't be the in any way similar to how alcohol damages your liver. I didn't come here to debate the legitimacy of the claims for hepatotoxicity, but I suppose I have to speak out against the spreading of misinformation. Placebo-control studies how found it to be almost as efficient in treatment for anxiety as prescription drugs while finding no correlation between kava use and hepatitis or liver failure. The only studies supporting liver damage have been in vitro/vivo testing on rodents. Flavokawain B is one of the few hepatoxic compounds found inside kava. When extracted using organic solvents, it becomes concentrated. Traditionally prepared kava has not been shown to be hepatoxic for it lacks the solubility needed to provide a high concentration of it. I believe there were other constituents shown to be hepatoxic, but the GSH in kava inhibits the ability of these constituents to be truly hepatoxic. I shouldn't have to defend something like kava when alcohol is as socially as acceptable as it is.

^Anyone else find a hilarious irony in OP's name versus OP's argument?

pinpoint said:

^Anyone else find a hilarious irony in OP's name versus OP's argument?

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Anyone else find it hilarious that this pinhead thinks kava is the only drug that could have caused the liver damage my name alludes to.
Actually, I kind of wish it was.

Pinhead? I could eat alphabet soup and shit out a better comeback than that. Come at me bro.

You must have not caught my allusion to SpongeBob

@all-

Stay on topic and be civil please, like the adults we are.

mypoorliver said:

Which studies are you speaking of?

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There are some studies studying the hepatotoxicity of individual kavalactones in the lab.

There are also many studies showing no liver damage among those who use the brew traditionally. There are also counter-studies in some cases on the kavalactones, and many theories about the cases of liver failure for a few "dietary supplement" users.

Until this paradox has been solved, one cannot say "kava destroys your liver" in such a definitive tone.

sekio said:

It is said that compounds like yangonin in kava root have activity at the CB1 cannabinoid receptor, the same that THC interacts at.

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Not all that surprised tbh, but an interesting clarification none the less.