Heroin Hey Methadone question, but this is for everyone, please help me out. :(

Okay,I have been searching A LOT onlin lately, and I can not find ANYTHING on this specific subject.

So maybe some of you have read my posts, but for those of you who haven't basically i was an IV heroin user for about 5 months, and in this last month I got subs off the street to start to slow down/get off.

What happened is that i succesfully did the slow taper and.. (this really still pisses me OFF) I was done, i had very little withdrawals and had stopped taking the subs for 2-3 days, had very minor withdrawals. The week beforehand I had gone from a 6mg dose down to a 1 and then just stopped. It was going great, but then.. I got weak, and i shot up again thinking one time would be fine. It was not fine because then the next day I woke up with full blown withdrawal again, cold sweats, nausea, diarehha, depression. so i though, damn, well okay I guess I will do it today and go back on and try again. So.. the past 3 weeks have been me doing this over and over again, I go on the subs for a week, then I take time off to get high, then I get back on, hardly even thinking about it towards the end.

Well, the point is, I have an extreme attraction to opiates, honestly, these subs saved my life because it hasss been dissipating a little.. but I know I can quit if i really want to at this point. I know i can. I can get off the h and everything.

Here is where it gets confusing.

The main reason i even ended up trying this shit was because I am Bipolar, and naturally gravitated towards drugs, especially opiates. I finally found a good d connect and immediately started shooting, I have been doing this for about 5 months, but then got sick of it. I don't want this to be my life. BUT heres the catch, before I started doing the opiates with my bipolar I was EXTREMELY depressed almost all of the time, when I wasn't.. I was crazy and stupid. When I found H and started doing it every day these problems COMPLETELY diminished.. I was no longer Bipolar, I was normal. It wasn't even about the high, it was about the fact that this was my med, man, this is what stopped the madness (finally!) but it's too expensive, and too sketchy, I found out about methadone recently, and I'm almost off this shit, but heres the confusing part.. I'm afraid to lose all of this because I know I will go RIGHT BACK to being bipolar as fuck, and being depressed all the time and other shit. ANd one thing I realised about this experience is that opiates seem to be the ONLY thing that cure my bipolar disorder.

Nothing else has.. I've tried meds, they didn't work, and PLUS when I'm not doing opiates I have an overwhelming craing for drinking.. since i've been doing suboxone I have gone back to drinking and I know that if i continue to be sober from the opiates I will probably become alcoholic.

I know that all of this could probably be avoided if I get on methadone.

I know that it will MOST LIKELY stop the depression and mania like dope did, and also stop me from having an extreme desire to drink and possibly become an alcoholic (like dope did.)

So this is my question, should I get on Methadone? I'm not talking about this in terms of addiction I am asking if I should get on it for my bipolar disorder and drinking problem because nothing else works ( i have tried them all) and I have found dope to work for this. And I think that if dope worked for these problems then it's a good chance that metadone will.

I am so confused I dont know what to do!!!! please help me!!! anyone, seriously any advice, whether educated or not, i don't care, I just need thought and advice. please help.

Well, no one can give you psychiatric advice really, but I sympathize with your situation as I know several people that really suffer from bipolar.

The thing I would ask you is, does suboxone help with your bipolar? Because in all honesty, there is nothing that different between buprenorphine (subutex/suboxone) and methadone. They're both opioids with long half lives, and you build a VERY quick tolerance to them both. Even though methadone doesn't have a "cieling effect" like bupe does, past a certain dosage (70mg or so, chronic use), no more euphoria can be achieved from additional methadone, only the negatives like respiratory depression and bad constipation will happen. I would just consider this because I thought methadone would satisfy me and end all my problems (after only a short time with opiate use as well),and it turned into a big mistake, because I truly got chained to it, and for the complete wrong reasons.

You dont just stop being bipolar from doing drugs.

You said you were no longer depressed, instead you were in one of your "manic" states. This is very common for drug users: when using we have lots of energy, want to do a lot of stuff, the opposite of our depressed state. Then drugs kick us into the manic aspect of bipolar disorder.

Its also even possible that youre not really bipolar, and its just drug induced. But drugs definitely did not cure your "bipolar disorder".

And its not a legitimate excuse for self medicating either. Self medicating with needle shots of heroin does not last that long let met tell you...

Doctors cant even diagnose you as bipolar until you TOTALLY AND HONESTLY AND TRULY STOP USING DRUGS! Not shooting skag every day does not count, total abstinence does. You're doing yourself and your doctors a disservice by continuing to use drugs.

And I think the very last thing you need to do is get on methadone.....what you really need to do imo is quit using drugs totally and completely for a few months, keep seeing a shrink and then tell us what they say.

You just described a typical addiction. There are a HELL of a lot of us here trapped in the suboxone heroin loop. I know I have full intention to taper off/get clean off heroin with suboxone, and like you after 2-4 weeks something clicks and I end up going back to dope. I personally have been trapped in this cycle on and off for a few years. I hate it.

Methadone will absolutely not help the situation you are in. Right now you are barely dependent on anything physically. Once you start methadone you are literally going to be trapped/handcuffed to the drug. Withdrawals are way worse then heroin just becuase they are do god damn long and drawn out. I tried going to methadone realized I was addicted to opiates. I find it hard to control my impulse to buy H etc.. just like you.

You have done it before, do ti again, use suboxone for a quick detox and suffer through whatever withdrawals you have to to get clean. This time on the day when you are feeling like picking up really bad take 16mg bupe so you are straight up blocked. For me all it takes is like even 10 minutes to get my mind off of copping lol. Anyway.. my point is you have to focus on your addiction. Simply taking suboxone or methadone does not help you get clean, you have to change the external factors in your life, your environment in a sense. Try and realize what is it that's making you relapse? Are you hanging with certian friends? Are you handling depression or some events by using drugs?

If I were you I would do this..and this is only if you raelly want to get clean. Sign up for an IOP program (intensive out-patient). This will get you over the hump and get you clean. Generally they last 2-3 months..this is voluntary of course. You have sessions 3 nights a week for 2-3 hours a night, kind of like an NA but different, its group cognative therapy, also you will be drug tested which helps you stay in line. Also think about trying out NA. It's not for everyone but there are quite a few people on here that swear by it..and an equal amount that think it sucks..but at least it is there, a valueable resource just waiting to be tapped.

Edit**
I hadn't thoroughly read your post.. you are still drinking, and basically just looking to replace one drug with another. In my opinion scratch all that stuff I said about being clean.. it won't work for jack shit if you are allowing your self to drink heavily. Using drugs is not 'keeping you from being bi-polar'. That is preposterous. If you wanna stay clean off opiates you will have to stay off of other drugs unless you fall into the 1% of people who can still use while they abstain from opiate use.

I've been both long term MMT and SMT and for me it was much more pleasurable to drink on methadone than Subs. In fact I had to taper down to 1-2 mg of subs and take a benzo to enjoy alcohol. However, with methadone I could get a nice buzz at my maint dose... which in the last few yrs was 80mg. That being said, I didn't crave or use alcohol nearly as much on done. maybe 1-2 times a month tops. But with subs, I drink most every day... That's just my experience and I know a few addicts who've had about the same, and others different.

IMO it's really an individual thing so you won't know for sure until you try or not. I recommend you don't. And I can't relate to how it affects bi-polar though my ex wife [and good friend] is a psychotherapist and told me once that many of her bi-polar patients used alcohol and/or drugs to excess.... and were the most difficult for her to help.

Do you have a primary care doctor - or a good psychiatrist? You might be a good candidate for suboxone+an snri or something, or methadone and some sort of mood stabilizer or anti depresant. I know many people who are bipolar and didn't find relief until they found a good clinician who got them on the right combo or mood stabilizer/anti d/opioid maintenance drugs.

You claim that you know you can quit any time you want but you are in a very dangerous place. Of course heroin helps with depression and stuff like that. I am no medical professional but I would think if anything heroin abuse may fuel any bipolar disorder you may have.. because while you are able to fund/sustain a habit you are stable but if for any reason you don't have access to a full agonist you are extremely depressed and manic.. it's like controlling your bipolar, when you use everything is OK, when you don't everythign is not. How was your disorder prior to your drug use be it alcohol weed or heroin? What age were you diagnosed?

To me you sound like any other addict on here. We have all been in your spot. Heroin makes you feel like everythign is alright (while you are on it (or have it in your hand lol). It makes your problems go away-squirt-plunger down-blisss. Ask anyone dependent on heroin...when they are high everything feels alright, you feel more in control of your life and your habit, you likely make future plans to detox which you think are viable only to have the world crashing in around you when you get stuck in withdrawals for whatever reason be it purposely or accidentally. You go from cool and collected to anxious and manic.

The bupe/heroin cycle you describe is something a LOT of us on the board have gone through/are going through with a bupe/suboxone problem. Now I am not saying you or any individuals (me being one of them) does this purposely or conciously, but you use buprenorphine to bridge the gap between getting high when you can afford/access it to stave off withdrawals. As soon as you loose access to that drug (be it financial, police, whatever) you are instantly pulled out of that harmonic world and put into what I imagine hell to be like.

For me it's a physical/mental thing too. When I first transition to buprenorphine it's usually pretty rough.. I generally feel like shit the 1st 3 days on bupe (with the 1st day being the worst, almost feeling like full blown heroin withdrawal even though I took the bupe), yes I wait 24 sometimes 30 hours from my last heroin shot). Then it happens.. once I start to feel better mentally and physically and I have fully adjusted to bupe, I end up relapsing, taking a step back, whatever you want to call it. Addicts are GREAT liars, and especially great at lying to yourself. I somehow convince my self that I can chip now, or I can use just for this weekend. Or I convince my self that the transition/withdrawals were not that bad.. fuck it, and soon enough dope is in my veins.

The dust has barely settled and I am thinking why not get high just one night? There must be some excuse like "it's the last time I will be able to use b/c of this or that" or "I hurt my arm...this pain is so bad and the doc gave me freakin T3's I need to go cop." And I end up picking up dope. Usually I will have even took my morning dose that day.. and I get REALLY high. 1 day turns into 3 days, then instead of these "vacations" every 3 or 4 weeks it becomes every week, 3 days you use heroin 4 days I feel like I am basically detoxing b/c I am transitioning back to bupe.. by the end of the week I feel good enough, good enough to take the subway and cop. Then the cycle starts all over again. Seriously my head might be watching TV or doing whatever but my body picks up my cell phone, presses a bunch of buttons, then it walks my head to the atm then to the subway.

For me it's been tough breaking this habit.. I have come to the conclusion that I have to get off of buprenorphine if I am really ready to be clean. I feel that as long as I have those pills in my drawer I have that cushion to fall back on. That subconciously is a deciding factor for me when relapsing I think because I know that if I start using heroin and become dependent, which happens quick, it's going to be hell without the bupe to detox not to mention blatantly obvious to anyone around you, like your boss.

If i wasn't dependent on bupe I would have nothing to take a "vacation" from. Then if I do manage to stay clean.. and I hit 4 weeks, I will have REALLY accomplished something. The chance of me regressing is much less knowing that my actions will have clear cut consequences. What goes up must come down... I can't 'put-off' the withdrawals now.. not to mention I will have accomplished a feat, true clean time, somethign I am dreaming about.. i'd love to have an honest 30-day chip.

Sorry to derail.. you can be the judge, personally I feel like we are in very similar positions in a sense even though I don't drink etc.. we are different but similar in many ways.

It's actually pretty well known that opiates are often used by people with bi-polar to self medicate. Of course they alleviate any mental strain, but I was talking to a social worker about this the other day, and she claimed there were definately statistics that showed a lot of opiate addicts are actually bipolar, or a lot of people with bi polar self medicate with heroin or other narcotics. I'll try to find a source for it.

Anyway, my personal oppinion is that methadone will not in the long run be effective for your mental illness. It might seem so at first, that it's the end all cure all, but after a week or two, when you adjust at a dose, and no longer get that honeymoon buzz out of it, you'll basically just be warding off withdrawals and hopefully some cravings as well.

Znegative said:

It's actually pretty well known that opiates are often used by people with bi-polar to self medicate. Of course they alleviate any mental strain, but I was talking to a social worker about this the other day, and she claimed there were definately statistics that showed a lot of opiate addicts are actually bipolar, or a lot of people with bi polar self medicate with heroin or other narcotics. I'll try to find a source for it.

Anyway, my personal oppinion is that methadone will not in the long run be effective for your mental illness. It might seem so at first, that it's the end all cure all, but after a week or two, when you adjust at a dose, and no longer get that honeymoon buzz out of it, you'll basically just be warding off withdrawals and hopefully some cravings as well.

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Not to mention you will be putting your self through the whole methadone clinic grind which means commuting to your clinic every single day to dose.

I would seriously try kratom as your opiate management before you try one of the harder pharms.

I am not sure that kratom would hold him at this point in his dependency. I think he mentions 6mg bupe and shooting heroin.

Or suboxone...

But seriously doesn't it sound like the OP would benefit MOST from meeting with a good psychologist and psychiatrist who is licensed to prescribe suboxone?

Methadone should be the LAST resort. You will be chained to the clinic, never able to take vacations, it well get very old, very fast. It works for some, but methadone should be only for the most seasoned veterans for whom everything else including bupe, has failed.

Have you been evaluated by a psychiatrist? Someone has given you a diagnosis, or have you diagnosed yourself?

Also, did you find Suboxone to be effective at controlling your heroin cravings at all? I, too, would recommend that you find a good addiction psychiatrist that can dispense Suboxone as well--this can be a difficult medical professional to find, but a good place to start is Suboxone's web page www.suboxone.com. I find that most people who try to treat themselves with Suboxone that they buy off the street invariably fail because they really need to be under a doctor's care, especially if an underlying psychiatric condition coexists.

tricomb said:

Methadone should be the LAST resort. You will be chained to the clinic, never able to take vacations, it well get very old, very fast. It works for some, but methadone should be only for the most seasoned veterans for whom everything else including bupe, has failed.

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I agree but I just want to add that you can take vacations at clinics. It tends to be tough though if you dont have 3 months clean on the clinic. But regardless of that what clnics will do is arrange a guest dosing. They find a meth clinic near wherever you are traveling and set you up to dose for a few days. If you ahev enough clean time you can plan in advance for a trip. For me I went away for like 5 days once.. I had to plan it about a month in advance and shit, and bring back newspapers for every day I was there to prove i was whever i was lol

Depends on your clinic, some have strict rules, others like the poster above me are more lenient. That's interesting about the newspapers.
Some allow benzos, some don't, you gotta check with your clinic as it depends.

Yeah my clinic was cool they allowed benzos if you were scripted..and there was even a psychitrist on staff but it was extremely hard to get prescribed benzos without reason. One thing that was good (or bad) was the urine test panel was just benzodiapines so since I had a script for 1x 30mg temazepam at bedtime daily I was able to use benzos without failin drug tests

Swain said:

Yeah my clinic was cool they allowed benzos if you were scripted..and there was even a psychitrist on staff but it was extremely hard to get prescribed benzos without reason. One thing that was good (or bad) was the urine test panel was just benzodiapines so since I had a script for 1x 30mg temazepam at bedtime daily I was able to use benzos without failin drug tests

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If you're using other benzos than prescribed and it's against your program rules there is a more sophisticated test that tells them your using other benzos or at least something different. I get k-pins prescribed and use Xanax occasionally with them. My dr says the urine screen is showing something other than k-pins. He is vague on what it actually is but does claim to know I'm not taking the k-pins by themselves. This must be something new because I never had a problem with it before and I think they only run the test if they suspect something. At least that's how USA govt healthcare works thru Veterans Admin and in an ORT program. I'm guessing most private dr's wouldn't bother with it??

toothpastedog said:

Or suboxone...

But seriously doesn't it sound like the OP would benefit MOST from meeting with a good psychologist and psychiatrist who is licensed to prescribe suboxone?

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This isn't an option. I do not have health insurance, do not have time, recources, and do not make enough money to be paying the same amount of money that I would be for dope. I'd rather be on dope than this because I have heard it is REALLY expensive, correct me if I'm wrong though.

Some of you mentioned that I am just "manic" when I am on the h. This is not the case, it takes away my mania too, and my mania is also really bad.

Suboxone helps w the depression a tiny bit, but not nearly as much as d, and I know that d is a full agonist whereas subs aren't. I also know the methadone is a full agonist.

Like I said, I'm not worried about the addiction at this point really, my problem (and I guess this is kind of addiction so nvm, but I'lll explain,) is the depression mostly and the mania. When I'm not on opiates I am bipolar. When I am I am not. I know you guys say that this is bs, but trust me, this is how it was for 5 months on h. As soon as I started trying to get off I'm back to where I was before, this being extremely depressed/manic all the time, nothing makes me happy, I drink a lot. When I am on H this isn't how it is anymore. and I know that may seem obvious and stuff, like ya it's a drug, of course it's going to do that. Well two points with this case. 1.Other drugs do not help my bipolar, they make it A LOT worse, whereas opiates do make it better. 2 Maybe it's better for me to be on opiates if my life is overall better?

I don't know, basically what I'm trying to figure out is if I should get on methadone because it will always be there, I will be able to afford it, it will probably do the same thing that H did and help eliminate bipolar symptoms in me.

On the contrary it will still be expensive, I will be chained to the drug as you guys said, I will not be able to leave my area, and maybe there are better options out there...

Keep in mind, I do not have health insurance, and I do not make enough money to see a doctor right now.

I saw doctors from when I was 15 to 19 years old. I was diagnosed as bipolar at 15 after just a couple visits. During this time I was using drugs, but they were 'soft' drugs (occasionally smoking weed, VERY occasionally drinking, cigarettes, and occasional adderall) So I do not think that the drugs caused it. I saw 4 different doctors and they all diagnosed me as bipolar. I have been on many different types of medication, very few of them worked. And if they did, it wasn't enough. THEN I started to abuse drugs because I just hated my life so much, and it got worse. Then I found opiates.. and for the first time in my life I was happy and felt normal.

And so this is why I'm in this situation, I know I should probably just get off of it all, and just figure out how to cope without, but I'm afraid that that wont work, and I'll just end up being miserable the rest of my life...

How many of you giving advise are long time users? Whats with this handcuffed to the clinic shit. You can get off the clinic anytime you want and go get high on any opiate you want. i was on 120mg for 5yrs the best fucking years of my life as a dope fiend. the guys been on and off dope for a while let him try methadone, its helped many many dope fiends, and if you earn the trust of the clinic you could come in once a week, oh please release the handcuffs. and if your unhappy go and try something else. i went from 120mg down 5mg every few days down to 40mg easy. Sure if you get arrested at a high dose your gonna hurt but don't get arrested, if your serious about getting help, i say give methadone a try. don't go up too fast to get high cause that shit used to get me plastered. Stay on a low dose as possible that makes you feel normal.
... human kind cannot bear very much reality.