Benzos Valium vs Klonopin and alcohol use - feel like hell the next day with Valium

So I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this. When I was on Xanax or even Klonopin, I could get tanked all night and as long as I didn't miss my dose the next day, I felt just fine. Now I have finally (after months of drinking on Valium) noticed that when I drink on Valium, the next day it is almost like I didn't take any Valium at all - I get the shakes, I get tingling, my heart races...

The reason I switched to Valium was because Klonopin stopped working but since I went from 60mg of Valium down to 20mg a day now, I am thinking about moving back to Klonopin at .5mg 2x a day (besides, my doctor refuses to prescribe any more Valium and I have a feeling the Klonopin will start working again). My question (and don't tell me to stop drinking because this is a drug board, I know about the risks and I don't need harm reduction - right now it doesn't matter if I drink 1 beer or a handle of vodka, I feel like hell the next day and I am generally a social drinker) is - does Valium have a low binding affinity for benzo receptors and thus gets "knocked off" by alcohol? It would explain why I feel so crappy and also why the withdrawals (half-life aside, its the time that the drug is actually having an effect in my system - and besides, Klonopin isn't THAT much lower unless you count active metabolites) from Valium are weaker than the ones from Xanax and Klonopin.

Ever since I switched to Valium, I have pretty much been disabled. I no longer have panic attacks (unless my agoraphobia kicks in or the aforementioned alcohol-precipitated withdrawal begins) but I also can not work, can only be out away from the house for a short period of time, etc. Valium does just about nothing for my agoraphobia unlike Klonopin and it makes me more depressed and withdrawn to boot so maybe a switch back after having a 9 month hiatus and getting my dose down from 4mg of Klonopin a day to 1mg will actually work.

Any tips anybody? Even more than the alcohol issue, I am probably going to have to switch back to Klonopin anyway since I have about 200 1mg pills of that and I have less than a week and a half worth of Valium left so I would like any opinions on that too.

Well buddy I've been rockin the k pin n alcohol combo for quite a while now. I guess I haven't gotten too into the k pins still taking a mg split up thru a day. But I always feel great the next day, minus the memory lapses. Kpinz are always the way to go imo

Yeah the memory isn't the big issue - already know about the blackouts. I am just curious if anyone has had V's and had my experience. From what I have seen as far as strength of affinity, klonopin has a much stronger affinity to GABA than Valium which means the Klonopin doesn't let go of the receptor as easily. I am just guessing here but Klonopin must have a much stronger "bind" to the receptors than Valium since its harder to withdraw from either Xanax or Klonopin and its pretty easy to withdraw from Valium which is why they do tapers with it. I am just curious if there is truly a brain reason for this.

I counted my K-Pins and the dosage... I'd be looking at about 6 months without a prescription on what I have in Kpins so maybe switching back would be a good thing? I mean yeah, its been 9 months since I last took it so I am sure that it would work again and honestly ---- I could actually hold down a job on K-pins, lost my job on V's... Should say something.

Your dosing is quite similar to mine - I just plan to do .5 and .5 a day (12 hours apart).

From what I've read, half-life or not, Klonopin actually has an EFFECTIVE life longer than V's. Klonopin in a non-smoker has an "effective" life between 12-20 hours and Valium has an "effective" life between 8-14... It seems like going back to Kpins would be the best interest for me.

My understanding is that diazepam is used in tapers not because it has a low binding affinity, but because it has an exceptionally long half-life and is a broad-spectrum benzo (anxiolytic, muscle relaxant, hypnotic, etc). But I'm not altogether sure.

Even if it does have a lower binding affinity, I don't see how alcohol could have the effect of displacing the valium, unless alcohol worked on exactly the same receptors and had a high binding affinity. But again I'm not sure.

I think in order to give the valium a chance to work you need to see how it feels without the alcohol.

Don't get me wrong, it works GREAT without alcohol... and yes it has a long half-life but from what little I understand about binding affinities it also is among the lowest and Klonopin is among the highest.

The alcohol is also a GABA-A agonist... in fact, it destroys GABA rather than binding to it - I am thinking that it knocks the valium off of the receptors while the Klonopin and Xanax stay tightly bound through its actions but I am not technical enough to know for sure.

suessmayr said:

My understanding is that diazepam is used in tapers not because it has a low binding affinity, but because it has an exceptionally long half-life and is a broad-spectrum benzo (anxiolytic, muscle relaxant, hypnotic, etc). But I'm not altogether sure.

Even if it does have a lower binding affinity, I don't see how alcohol could have the effect of displacing the valium, unless alcohol worked on exactly the same receptors and had a high binding affinity. But again I'm not sure.

I think in order to give the valium a chance to work you need to see how it feels without the alcohol.

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No ideas from anyone else?

MagickalKat777 said:

No ideas from anyone else?

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soooo you get agorophobia when your alcohol induced precipiated withdrawl happens?(say that sentence outloud really its a trip)....... and you dont have a job... and you cant leave the house? aand you dont wanna hear anyone tell you not to drink..

well you mentioned that you went from 60mg to 20mg of valium, that is going to cause withdrawals for sure. I think you are just becoming tolerant to the valium and not upping your dose accordingly, which is why you get so hungover the next day. Alcohol won't bump valium off the receptors, it mostly binds to other receptor subunits than valium does, AFAIK. Try taking a higher dose of valium and see how you feel the next day, if you are dropping your dose you are going to feel like shit and if you are drinking your hangover will be much worse.

Well, I took Klonopin last night. Drank the same amount of alcohol and I feel perfectly fine. It wouldn't be the first time that a drug held much tightly to the receptors than another - look at amphetamine and methamphetamine. There is no reversal for methamphetamine but there is for amphetamine. Binding affinities in the same drug class can be vastly different. One can replace or obliterate the other. It is the order of things. I took that Klonopin and I honestly don't think that I will have *ANY* Valium withdrawals. I found out that not only is Valium a weaker benzo, its binding affinity is about half of Klonopin which means that it holds on to the receptor so tight that it won't let go unless that receptor is destroyed. Now you have all heard, I'm sure, about K-pin withdrawals. They are absolute hell. Worse than any benzo for most people. Good thing I am taking Delsym at the same time, no?

^for its nmda antagonist properties? i'm interested in how well it works for reducing tolerance or possibly preventing withdrawal symptoms or lessening them. k-pin withdrawals are awful, switching to valium from kpin was also terrible. I went from 4mg kpin to 30mg valium and had withdrawals.

valium is the ideal drug used for alcohol withdrawl, or librium. Klonopin will work just as well for alcohol withdrawl, as it has, and YES a longer half life than valium also.

So you went down from 60mg valium to 20mg valium, and only after that did you start having these reactions to alcohol?

Sounds like benzo withdrawal, TBPH. One of the primary symptoms of my benzo withdrawal was an absolute inability to consume any alcohol without feeling a myriad of precipitated withdrawal symptoms.

My advice, although I highly doubt you'll take it: quit drinking and get stabilized on your valium dose, then taper off the valium and stay off benzos for at least a year before you start drinking (or using any other GABA drugs) again.

MagickalKat777 said:

and don't tell me to stop drinking because this is a drug board, I know about the risks and I don't need harm reduction - right now it doesn't matter if I drink 1 beer or a handle of vodka, I feel like hell the next day and I am generally a social drinker

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Frankly, its pretty ridiculous that you would want to continue drinking if you feel, in your own words, "like hell the next day".

Sounds like benzo withdrawal to me but cut out the drinking for a while to see if that helps?

lots of people drink every night eventhough they feel like hell the next day...i dunno how they do it or why but i couldnt live like that..

i came accross this thread and i haefve no idea whats goingn on right now!haha

Roger&Me gives solid advice.