Misc Phenibut and Kratom addictions. Looking for advice.

Hey there, I'd like to be as quick as possible with this, if there are any questions anyone who'd like to help want to ask, feel free.

I've been addicted to Kratom for 95% of the last two years, only ever quitting for a few weeks to a month at a time, and only doing so a few times over the last two years. I only ever quit because I was out of money. Well, I finally have come to terms that it has affected my life for worse and I really just want to be *happy* again. Not so stagnant. Nothing is inspiring anymore. I look forward to nothing except a foul-tasting tea. Well, I ordered some phenibut a little over a month ago because I was prepping to quit the kratom. What instead happened was I ended up using both, got cold feet with quitting kratom. So I think I've been doing a little less than 1 gram of phenibut a day for the last 35 days, and I have a pretty hefty kratom leaf habit. I WANT to quit kratom now. But I have the phenibut in the mix too, and I don't know which to quit first! And I'm running low on both. I didn't even know phenibut had addictive potential when I bought it, but noticed the euphoric feeling was diminishing and then my sleep was getting seriously disrupted, and I have just a generally more "weird" feeling day to day. Kratom really doesn't make me feel good at all, and I feel like this is even more because of the phenibut. So what should I do?

The weirdest thing was, one day when I had only had a sliver of my usual dose of kratom, one that should see withdrawals soon after, I actually felt pretty good all night. Almost normal. This was because I had taken phenibut without kratom (basically). So part of me thinks I should just get more phenibut, use basically the same dose I have been while I quit kratom, and then wean off of phenibut with some kava. That or admit myself into a detox facility, because I am just completely sick of messing with this. I just want a normal life with a normal brain again. If anyone can give me advice I would really, really, really appreciate it. And I apologize for my linear-sloppy train of thought. Thanks a lot guys.

One more quick question, for those who would have a good guess/experience:

Which drug's withdrawal phase would be "worse?"

Hi TheLonging. I think yours may be a special case in terms of quitting order. Generally speaking, I would usually recommend maintaining the phenibut while tapering (as quick as possible) the kratom, to help manage those symptoms. But in your case, since you have only been using the phenibut for about a month, I would take the opposite approach. While it is debatable which drug has a subjectively worse withdrawal, phenibut, like any GABAergic, has a much more potentially dangerous withdrawal. Because of this, I would eliminate the phenibut as soon as possible (tapering as quick as possible) before the dependence becomes too large. After about a month of use there shouldn't be too many complications. Afterwards, you can deal with the kratom, with which an additional few weeks of use (while quitting the phenibut) will not have much effect on your overall dependence level.

Alternatively, you could try to concurrently drop both at a slower rate, but in any case, I think priority one is to focus on dropping the phenibut as soon as you can. Good luck!

Forgot to add: I think another ideal approach, if you can manage it, would be to drop the kratom cold turkey NOW while using the phenibut for about 3-4 days to get through the primary kratom withdrawal, then focus on quickly reducing the phenibut as much as possible. I think this may work well, given your experience mentioned in your last paragraph of your post, along with some anecdotal reports suggesting that phenibut seems to be particularly effective in mitigating kratom (specifically) withdrawal.

And veggies, thanks a ton. If one were to taper down, off 1g(or less)/day of phenibut, how fast could one do this safely?

Veggies' approaches are spot on. If you can get out of the phenibut addiction before it becomes full-blown, that's best. If you can't, consider quitting kratom first and phenibut afterward. I'd definitely go with the former over the latter though.

Well my thought is that I think I can get through kratom withdrawal quickest, as I've done it before, and if I have time to just focus on a quick phenibut taper, I'll get through it a lot less painfully not worrying about the discomfort of kratom wds on top of it. I don't really have any kratom left, so I should be through with the hard part in a few days.

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Hey thelonging! Here are my thoughts on your questions.

thelonging said:

And veggies, thanks a ton. If one were to taper down, off 1g(or less)/day of phenibut, how fast could one do this safely?

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My feeling is that dropping from a month of ~1g/day should be able to safely go very quick. To make up a hypothetical schedule, I would say maybe start at 700mg and drop by 100mg/day, possibly maintaining at the lower end of the schedule (200mg or so) for an extra day or two or reducing slightly slower (so, e.g., day by day, 700-600-500-400-300-250-200-150-100). I actually think this is a very caution schedule based on the habit, but just to be on the safe side it is better not to jump off too rapidly from GABAergics (esp. if you have a history of any other heavy GABAergic dependence, however minor). However, the most important factor is to note how you are feeling and if a taper is too fast (or too slow), then its fine to adjust accordingly. You just want to avoid the pitfall of deviating from a planned taper for the wrong reasons (e.g., not wanting to quit and 'sabotaging' the taper by prolonging it too much).

Well my thought is that I think I can get through kratom withdrawal quickest, as I've done it before, and if I have time to just focus on a quick phenibut taper, I'll get through it a lot less painfully not worrying about the discomfort of kratom wds on top of it. I don't really have any kratom left, so I should be through with the hard part in a few days.

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I think this is true to a degree, but make sure not to underestimate the potential for any sorts of PAWS after dropping kratom. This is really an area where I think your individual chemistry and social situation will dictate how easily you would be able to bounce back to baseline (physically and mentally). It could be the case that you feel great after dropping kratom- and it sounds like you have the right attitude and motivation for this. But in the event that there is some lingering mood effects/RLS/etc., you will just need to make sure that you are prepared to manage these symptoms while rapidly dropping phenibut. This is where you really want to have a set taper schedule that you follow stringently, and would really benefit by having some sort of social support or other form of contingency to keep you on the right track, as I'm sure you know, it's very easy to make up reasons to delay your taper when in a PAWS state.

Anyways, overall I think you got it! Sounds like your head is in the game and you really want to drop the phenibut and kratom. In my experience, and I am sure that of many others, the genuine desire to quit something is not only a critical determining factor in being successful in this regard, but also makes the process go much "easier" (as far as WD of this type can be easy!).

Quick "update." This is my last day of kratom use. I didn't really taper at all, except early today I only took about 20% of my usual daily kratom. I should be withdrawing by morning, and I'm getting nervous now, the confidence is kind of fading, and on top of that I never *quit* phenibut, though I did go down to I'm guessing 0.25 - 0.35g (I don't have a scale, but doing the math on how much I had and how much I was taking before, this is about accurate.) I have very little phenibut left and I will probably run out while I'm still experiencing at least a few Kratom withdrawals. So I'm scared, and I am starting to regret not quitting one of the things sooner, but I had a lot of performance anxiety to deal with this last week, practicing for, and then playing music in front of 75 people. I didn't want to be an anxious wreck on top of the butterflies. I wish doctors knew more about these drugs. I'm getting really, really nervous. I do however have some good Kava I haven't touched in case things get too bad I guess. It should maybe help without affecting the receptors I've ruined.

Also, just a curiosity, not going to do this: If someone were withdrawing badly from kratom, would taking some weak painkiller help with the symptoms? I am sure they do, but would that just continue the physical addiction? Like a cross-tolerance? Not sure I know the term for what I'm asking.

Anyways, this sucks, I'm finally remembering what this feels like, and on top of that I'll be no longer taking phenibut too. I'm trying to hope that there won't be any real painful WDs from it. I didn't notice much upon cutting my dose in half. Maybe I was doing less than I thought. Maybe it won't be nearly as bad as the kratom. Maybe none of this will be really bad. Maybe it will suck and I'll be a weakling and be on kratom for a long time. I don't know. This sucks.

Sorry for the tantrum, I just need somewhere to vent.

Yeah, other opioids will work as a substitute, even loperamide (Immodium)