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Ecstacy LD50 question

MULISHA

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 9, 2001
Messages
111
During a conversation with someone about the LD50 for MDMA being about 6000mg (dependant on body weight also) a retort was posed, if the lethal dose for 50% was 6000mg, could the LD1 ( lethal dose for 1% ) be much lower, like 200mg, lending any weight to media reports of "ecstacy overdoses" rather than problems with water intoxication, overheating or poly-drug use.
So could a small percetage of people out there actually O.D. on 2 pills?
fire away BT
 
Aparently 5-9% of caucasians are defincient in the enzyme CYP2D6 (debrisoquine-4-hydroxylase), which is the one that metabolises MDMA. LD50 is, and it's always a guess, probably based on people with a "normal" amount of this enzyme. If you don't have enough then obviously you will be in more danger of "over-dosing" from what would, for other people, be a normal dose.
Just goes to show what bollocks figures like LD50s are...
More info on the pharmacokinetics of MDMA here.
edit: i always cock up the spelling of that enzyme. good thing i'm not actually a scientist ;)
[ 15 April 2002: Message edited by: johnboy ]
 
I've triple dropped blue barrels and that must have been around a 280mg-320mg dose.
I don't recommend anyone do this. I got extreme shakes, body temperature sky rocketed and I had the worst comedown of my life. At the time I thought I was fine and in control but looking back on the night two days later I didn't think it was such a good idea.
5 blue barrels and you'll be calling an ambulance for sure.
7-8 blue barrels and I'd say you're gone!
 
Keep in mind that LD50 levels are usually measured as where 50% of a given population would die from toxicity related to the compound. People can die from less than an LD50 dose of 'ecstacy' as a result of a few factors:
  • "Ecstacy" isn't always MDMA, and other adulterants may be many times more toxic (have a lower LD50 dose) than MDMA.
  • Chemicals contained in pills are often CNS stimulants which can cause hypertensive shock or hyperthermia. These conditions can occur at FAR lower doses than stated in the LD50 for MDMA.
  • Combining pills of containing different active chemicals can result in dangerous synergies which can dramatically elevate body temperature and heart rate.
In addition to this, as JB mentioned above, a naturally occurring, ethnically dependent deficienty of CYP2D6 occurs in the population. The best I can find at this stage is that caucasian populations experience a 7-9% incidence of deficiency of CYP2D6, and in asian populations approximately 1% are deficient. (REF: N. Poolsup et al., Pharmacogenetics and phychopharmacotherapy. Journal of Clinical Pharmacy and Therapeutics 25, pp. 197-220, 2000). However, I believe that LD50 levels will not be unduly influenced by this deficiency, as (a) the LD50 literally means Life/Death 50% implying that half a sample population taking the mentioned dose would be expected to die, and (b) this particular LD50 (of 106mg/kg MDMA, or ~6000mg) is extrapolated from a mouse IV dose -- see here for LD50 sources for MDMA).
In my experience, increasing the dose of MDMA (above, say, a nominal 100-150mg dose) increases the occurrence of the negative side-effects more than the corresponding increase of the positive side-effects.
BigTrancer :)
 
In my experience, increasing the dose of MDMA (above, say, a nominal 100-150mg dose) increases the occurrence of the negative side-effects more than the corresponding increase of the positive side-effects.
Totally true!
 
MULISHA remember that there are a few factors to be aware of.
1. Everyone elses posts above mine :)
2. I doubt that actual humans were used to find the LD50. It would be a figure derived from animal experiments and other factors that are understood by the people that worked it out
3. There most likely is not a linier relationship between the LD50 amount, and smaller amounts and the subsequent chance of death. ie if LD50 is 6000mg then LD25 is problably not 3000mg.
4. Consuming such heroic amounts may leave someone alive, but they might not be able to live very full lives and have all sorts of complications.
 
In my experience, increasing the dose of MDMA (above, say, a nominal 100-150mg dose) increases the occurrence of the negative side-effects more than the corresponding increase of the positive side-effects.
I totally agree with this statement. 3 white stars doesn't equal fun. It's a totally different high. I got a stomach ache, vomited (your body's natural reaction to intoxication), and I was sweating like a pig (did you know, that scientificaly it is impossible for pigs to sweat - why am I even mentioning this). Plus thing of the money you save.
I'm writing an essay that is due in four hours, and I'm procrascinating as much as I can :) .
 
3 white stars doesn't equal fun
That really depends on the individual body chemistry of the person don't you think? I've seen a friend of mine complain they was only 'buzzing' and not peaking after he'd had 7 white motorollas from back in june/july last year. I've also seen people take quarters of other pills and not be able to stand.
There are too many contributing factors to make such a broad statmant as "3 isnt fun".
I'm not trying to have a go here I'm just trying to point out that everyone reacts differently and what's good for the geese ....might not be good for my shoe.
 
Hey BT and jb - I just found this yesterday and was a little surprised. Identification of the human cytochrome's P450 involved in the oxidative metabolism of 'ecstasy'-related designer drugs. In particular the last paragraph which says:
These first in vivo data which relate plasma levels of MDE metabolites to the CYP2D6 genotype thus demonstrate the significance of the CYP2D6 polymorphism for the metabolism of MDE and likely also MDMA. However, they also show that considerable metabolism via demethylenation
does occur in the absence of functional CYP2D6 in a PM individual, demonstrating that other enzymes must be active in vivo. Thus, the CYP2D6 PM genotype may not by itself constitute a substantial risk factor for the adverse effects of MDMA and MDE. In fact, it was recently shown
for the first time that three patients with fatal MDMA intoxication were all extensive metabolizers [36]. Our in vitro data suggest that in addition to CYP2D6 deficiency, low levels or inhibition by drug interaction of the low affinity enzymes CYP1A2, CYP2B6, and CYP3A4 may be responsible for adverse drug effects. Indeed, a fatal drug interaction was reported between MDMA and ritonavir, a strong inhibitor of CYP3A4 and CYP2D6 [37]. It appears likely, therefore, that a number of different factors contribute to the risk of adverse and toxic effects of this group of
drugs.
In other words, perhaps CYP2D6 deficiency alone is not enough to explain adverse reactions to MD**. And how weird is this - "three patients with fatal MDMA intoxication were all extensive metabolizers" (meaning they had lots of CYP2D6).
 
very weird
but were they lacking in one or more of the other metabolizers ? must have been
 
I had a hunch something like this might come up Babydoc, thanks for confirming this. Do you think the reason for this could be related to the relative importance of each of these cytochromes for metabolising MDMA?
I remember reading that CYP2D6 makes up about 2%-6% of the total liver cytochrome P450 whereas the CYP3A* family makes up over 50% and is ultimately responsible for first-pass metabolism (from: AK Pau - Drug Interactions in the Multidrug Therapy of HIV), though whether this has any bearing on the clinical significance of each of these enzymes when metabolising MDMA, I'm unsure.
The article above notes that even while CYP2D6 makes up a small percentage of the P450 enzymes, about 20% of clinical medications are metabolised by this enzyme. Which leads me to think that the relative abundance of the enzymes is not necessarily an indication of their importance (eg. for metabolism of MDMA).
At least one death, believed to be the result of a ritonavir/MDMA mix, has been reported thus far. The case discussed by Dr. Pau involved a 32-year-old HIV-positive British male with a history of alcohol-related liver disease, who died of an MDMA overdose on October 6, 1996. He had been taking a standard dose of ritonavir (600 mg BID) for approximately two weeks. On the night of his death, he had taken two and a half MDMA tablets (150 mg in total) and had consumed four beers. Soon after taking the extra half tablet, he became hypertonic; his respiratory rate peaked at 45 and his heart rate exceeded 140 bpm. He then became cyanotic, experienced a tonic-clonic seizure and vomiting, went into cardiac arrest, and died later that night.
The concentration of MDMA in his blood was 3.56 mg/L—the equivalent of taking 22 ecstasy tablets. Following additional toxicological investigations, it was concluded that inhibition of CYP2D6 by ritonavir and alcohol ingestion contributed to the high MDMA levels and his unfortunate death. However, some experts note that there is no way to say with certainty if this was truly a drug-drug interaction; other possibilities include abnormal CYP2D6 function or self-administration of a large MDMA dose.
On the topic of MDMA-related death, it appears that even normal metabolisers may be at risk from persisting MDMA concentration in the blood if taken in combination with inhibitors such as Ritonavir (which inhibits 3A4 and 2D6) or substances that compete for metabolism such as DXM. (ie. When you inhibit the major enzymes responsible for metabolising MDMA, you run into trouble).
BigTrancer :)
 
LD50 measurements usually apply to small animals, it would be slightly unethical to do experiments of this nature on a population of humans - although you would probably get some volunteers from here :) :)
One of the major problems with toxicology is that LD50 in these animals can be very different to LD50 in humans, therefore the animal figures are not very useful. However the best bet would be to do some searching on LD50 for chimps or something, i'm sure some caring government agency has done lots of great experiments to find out :(
all i know is don't take too much, eh, and don't breathe diesel exhaust, it contains the most carcinogenic substances known to mankind.
 
im not sure where I heard this, mabey on a discussion board somewhere else, but i was under the impression LD50 for humans was found by taking the LD50 for mice then doing some kind of multiplication
 
There's a link in my first post in the thread that explains this:
this particular LD50 (of 106mg/kg MDMA, or ~6000mg) is extrapolated from a mouse IV dose -- see here for LD50 sources for MDMA).
Of course they're not going to figure out an LD50 for people by pumping some deathrow inmate full of mdma until they die. Duh.
BigTrancer :)
 
Has some nice info for anyone who hasn't read this before..
 
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