Cowboy Mac
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2000
- Messages
- 3,084
8.4kg seizure of MDMA precursor (Piperonal) - Hearald Sun - 23/01/02
- Thread starter Cowboy Mac
- Start date
So I guess MDMA is made in AUZ for the AUZ market. I knew AUZ chemists could do it.
I remember a thread where ye of little faith had the opinion that MDMA was only made on the personal use scale in AUZ. This guy was obviously supplying his local scene. Good on ya man!
I remember a thread where ye of little faith had the opinion that MDMA was only made on the personal use scale in AUZ. This guy was obviously supplying his local scene. Good on ya man!
Well that is surprising; but two things must be noted:
Piperonal is not a precursor for MDMA; it is impossible to make MDMA from piperonal. (as cowboy pointed out this is completely incorrect; anything is possible and the methode cowboy noted is actually well known although not well tested to my knowledge; that being: piperonal --> beta-nitro ---> MD-P2P)
A very long way round but i guess something he may have been going to do.
MDA is generally made from piperonal.
Yes someone could then make MDMA from MDA but this is difficult and would lose about half the MDA made and hence an enormous loss of potential profit.
Piperonal is not anyway related to the production of "ice" whatever they feel that drug is.
And finally i think it was BT who said that either the manufacturers are importing the drug or importing the precursors; and whats the point of importing the precursors?
Obviously it was done here; maybe Popper is right and its done more often than we think.
China as the source to. Maybe they are still providing people with various precursors.
[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
Piperonal is not a precursor for MDMA; it is impossible to make MDMA from piperonal. (as cowboy pointed out this is completely incorrect; anything is possible and the methode cowboy noted is actually well known although not well tested to my knowledge; that being: piperonal --> beta-nitro ---> MD-P2P)
A very long way round but i guess something he may have been going to do.
MDA is generally made from piperonal.
Yes someone could then make MDMA from MDA but this is difficult and would lose about half the MDA made and hence an enormous loss of potential profit.
Piperonal is not anyway related to the production of "ice" whatever they feel that drug is.
And finally i think it was BT who said that either the manufacturers are importing the drug or importing the precursors; and whats the point of importing the precursors?
Obviously it was done here; maybe Popper is right and its done more often than we think.
China as the source to. Maybe they are still providing people with various precursors.
[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
Cowboy Mac
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2000
- Messages
- 3,084
U r completely right.
I knew as soon as i posted my post the use of the word impossible was very poor; but didnt have time to edit it till now.
I still feel his intention was probably to make MDA though.
Good job on pulling me up!
[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
I knew as soon as i posted my post the use of the word impossible was very poor; but didnt have time to edit it till now.
I still feel his intention was probably to make MDA though.
Good job on pulling me up!
[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
phase_dancer
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2001
- Messages
- 6,179
As Biscuit has said before, piperonal is less well known as a starting material for MDA / MDMA than is safrole. Around 94-96 many chemical suppliers including Chinese companies were advertising piperonal on the internet. Being an aldehyde, it allows great flexibility when building an alkyl side chain, and is commonly found in organic labs for this reason. MBDB (Methyl J - Eden) can also be synthesized from it.
Nitrostyrene chemistry has been applied to making amphetamine from benzaldehyde, or almond flavouring. Many styrenes are also watched chemicals, including some industrially used precursors.
Piperonal, used extensively in the perfume and flavouring industries, is commercially synthesized from isosafrole. It was once (still is?) used as a synthetic vanilla flavouring, and as an ant repellant. You may recall seeing piperonal butoxide. It is used as synergist with pyrethrum and some pyrethroids (insecticides) and is also made from isosafrole. Piperonal occurs in nature usually in small amounts, unlike safrole - an abundant, essential oil component. The interesting thing about Piperonal butoxide’s synergistic properties, is that it also selectively binds to cytochrome P452 2D6, the same isozyme MDMA is detoxified by (in those without 2D6 deficiency) It works as a synergist by “occupying” the cytochrome which effectively increases the pyrethroid’s potency.
Some synergists can increase potency 1000’s of times. The relevance of this should not be underestimated when gauging the synergistic affects of poly drug use.
[oops sidetracked there ….]
I agree that this guy’s intention was probably to make MDA. The other chemicals needed can be obtained or made from OTC materials. Biscuit is also correct in stating the expected losses in converting MDA to MDMA would not make the process viable. Shulgin’s yields were terrible and that was refluxing for 4 days using LiAlH4, a powerful reducing agent. Unlikely too that someone would have access to much LiAlH4 outside of stealing it.
I think that small scale MDMA production in Aus would most likely start from safrole, as all other chems and materials are available OTC. Even sass oil can be bought in small amounts – lots of small amounts. And while distilling safrole from sources other than sassafras oil may be considered tedious and labour intensive, if it is the hardest part of the exercise, I bet its being done by someone. Boilers and distillers aren’t hard to make. A local company has also entertained the idea of establishing a processing plant for camphor oil, as it grows like a pest around these parts.
What I wonder is whether this guy had imported piperonal previously and got away with it, or if this was his first attempt? And do other recent busts indicate more enforcement or surveillance measures, or simply that more people are attempting to obtain things this way?
Nitrostyrene chemistry has been applied to making amphetamine from benzaldehyde, or almond flavouring. Many styrenes are also watched chemicals, including some industrially used precursors.
Piperonal, used extensively in the perfume and flavouring industries, is commercially synthesized from isosafrole. It was once (still is?) used as a synthetic vanilla flavouring, and as an ant repellant. You may recall seeing piperonal butoxide. It is used as synergist with pyrethrum and some pyrethroids (insecticides) and is also made from isosafrole. Piperonal occurs in nature usually in small amounts, unlike safrole - an abundant, essential oil component. The interesting thing about Piperonal butoxide’s synergistic properties, is that it also selectively binds to cytochrome P452 2D6, the same isozyme MDMA is detoxified by (in those without 2D6 deficiency) It works as a synergist by “occupying” the cytochrome which effectively increases the pyrethroid’s potency.
Some synergists can increase potency 1000’s of times. The relevance of this should not be underestimated when gauging the synergistic affects of poly drug use.
[oops sidetracked there ….]
I agree that this guy’s intention was probably to make MDA. The other chemicals needed can be obtained or made from OTC materials. Biscuit is also correct in stating the expected losses in converting MDA to MDMA would not make the process viable. Shulgin’s yields were terrible and that was refluxing for 4 days using LiAlH4, a powerful reducing agent. Unlikely too that someone would have access to much LiAlH4 outside of stealing it.
I think that small scale MDMA production in Aus would most likely start from safrole, as all other chems and materials are available OTC. Even sass oil can be bought in small amounts – lots of small amounts. And while distilling safrole from sources other than sassafras oil may be considered tedious and labour intensive, if it is the hardest part of the exercise, I bet its being done by someone. Boilers and distillers aren’t hard to make. A local company has also entertained the idea of establishing a processing plant for camphor oil, as it grows like a pest around these parts.
What I wonder is whether this guy had imported piperonal previously and got away with it, or if this was his first attempt? And do other recent busts indicate more enforcement or surveillance measures, or simply that more people are attempting to obtain things this way?
