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who keeps medications to abort an OD or bad experience?

S

SirLSD

Ex-Bluelighter
Joined
Feb 14, 2001
Messages
192
anyone keep a first aid kinda thing with medications and stuff that u can use to abort an OD or unpleasent roll/trip/.../ experienced by yourself or friends? what do u keep in it?? what do u think should be added to it?
SirLSD
[ 12 January 2002: Message edited by: SirLSD ]
 
ahh beyond quikeze/enos and valium theres not much really i could think that was actually useful. nothing outside of thorazine can "stop" a bad trip, and it often does harm itself. nothing you could legally get could prevent an OD. remember; we aren't trained doctors/nurses, or if we are we wouldn't be asking this question. leave it to the professionals.
if the person is having some emotional/psychological problems the best thing you can do is just reassure them, until it's all over.
if the person is having physical medical problems then call an ambulance.
that's really your only choices.
[ 12 January 2002: Message edited by: johnboy ]
 
are you sure there arent any doctors or nurses or other health care professionals amongst us johnboy? but yes that is the group i was expecting replies from. ofcourse anyone else should call an ambulance rather than fucking around.
how about beta blockers or clonidine if someones heart is doin 200bpm and their panicing? either would be perfect. benzos also good.
a few of the antipsycotics(i think) would be good for an unpleasant trip.
keep thinking their must be many more options.
SirLSD
ps onlyu applies to well educated people.
 
If there is risk of an OD then I think you do what you can for the person until the professionals arrive.
However many of the bad trip horror stories you hear/read involve the subject being taken to the hospital/police station where things only become worse. I think reassurance is the best thing for a bad trip, some benzos really could help calm them. I think if its a case of a bad trip and nothing more they're in safer hands with friends than anyone else.
Furthermore once you cross the line of informing authorities you cannot go back, you will all have to face the consequences afterwards as well.
 
SirLSD: that's what i meant. i'm sure there are heaps of medical people here (i know one or two) but the thing is they know how to use this stuff, and would probably be wary of untrained people having a little knowledge and doing more harm than good.
i'll use an example to illustrate my fear. once i was in the chat room and this kid from NA said "i got this "seriton" shit from my mothers medicine cupboard, should i take it to roll harder, coz i herd its all about the seriton" i quickly said wait up, and asked him some questions and it turns out he'd found a MAOI, which had the word "serotonin" written somewhere on the side.
now that kid could've ended up dead from the small bit of info that was out of context. i'm just asking that if this discussion goes further (and i'm not about to stop you) that anything mentioned is fully explained and contextualised.
takes benzos as an example. they were also my first choice as something that might help a bad trip BUT i'd hope it was made very clear that these are depressants, and should in no way be combined with GHB/1,4.
it's also worrying when you are giving meds to someone you dont know, you can't tell what they might have allegies/advers reactions to (and they probably are in no state to tell you). with first aid in the workplace i know i'm not supposed to even give someone a panadol because of this. usually i'll take the chance with a minor analgesic, and in some situations i'll stretch it out to a benzo, but giving betablockers to a stranger i find pretty worrying. anti-psychotics, such as thorazine, are very hardcore substances, and there is no way in hell i'd be happy with an untrained person using them.
this thread will be useful, and i'm happy for it to go on, but like i said context must be given, and wider implications thought about. i dont want it to just end up being a shopping list. :)
 
actually could someone move this thread to the medical forum? i really should have posted it there.
SirLSD
 
try giving them orange juice if theyre having an unpleasant roll or are freaking out really badly. but only if they wont calm down and youve been trying for ages to reasure them.
anythign citris acid like orange juice or lemon juice will counteract with e.
 
i don't think citric acid counteracts with mdma... but, i will stand to correction...
personally, i keep codeine with me in case of a bad trip (on lsd) as it brings sleep a whole world or three closer.
 
we had a friend who started majorly freaking on e, our mate who was a dealer went and brought orange juice and tried to get her to drink it, we ended up having to pin her down and force it down her throat. she calmed down pretty quickly after that. all i can say is if you have a friend who u think might have a few screws lose, they should stay off the hullicigens. ive never heard of anyone spending a month in a mental hospital from speed, i do however no someone who ended up there from e. she took the same pill from the same batch as her friends and totally lost it and spent a month in an institution. i do know someone else who one night was buying a pack of ciggies in this packed club, and thought he had this vision of him in a coffin and he nearly really badly lost it cos he thought he was going to die. his friends had taken the same pills and were fine, and this wasnt a one off either, they would take the same pills, his friends would be ok and he wont.
 
Originally posted by Plague Bearer:
If there is risk of an OD then I think you do what you can for the person until the professionals arrive.
However many of the bad trip horror stories you hear/read involve the subject being taken to the hospital/police station where things only become worse. I think reassurance is the best thing for a bad trip, some benzos really could help calm them. I think if its a case of a bad trip and nothing more they're in safer hands with friends than anyone else.
Furthermore once you cross the line of informing authorities you cannot go back, you will all have to face the consequences afterwards as well.
I'm not 100% sure of this, so hopefully someone can clarify, but my understanding is that here, unlike in the US, hospitals/ambulances don't have to inform the police in the case of a drug overdose.
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sydkiwi: I can't see how forcing OJ down someones throat could help them. The idea that OJ cancels a bad pill is overrated. Sure taking acidic drinks WITH a pill may decrease it's absorption, but once someone is feeling the pill, they have absorbed it. Your lucky she didn't vomit all over you.
As a "trained professional" (not in emergency nursing though, I'm in psych nursing), I would say never give anyone on stimulants a beta-blocker. From the MIMS:
Amphetamines may antagonise the hypotensive effects of antihypertensives. Basically, the beta-blocker probably wouldn't help.
As for Thorazine, well Largactil in Australia, sure it will counteract the effects of amphetamines. In hospital, they are more likely to use a similar drug, haloperidol. But how many people know the side-effects of Largactil or haloperidol? There is a group of side-effects called Extra Pyramidal Side-effects (EPSE's) that include dystonias (extreme muscle spasms), one of which, laryngospasm can be fatal if someone develops it while asleep. Amphetamines can also cause dystonias, so I guess it is possible that combining the two may increase the risk. Dystonia's are statistically most common in young men, and people just starting an anti-psychotic. EPSE's are less common with the newer anti-psychotics, but they still happen. I would strongly discourage anyone from giving any anti-psychotic to someone who it isn't prescribed for.
Then there is the potential for drugs to interact via the liver's cytochrome P450 enzyme system. This is complicated stuff, that I won't go into here but you can search on it in Health.
I'm with JB - a normal dose of a benzo might be OK with someone on stimulants or acid (definitely not with any CNS depressants like G though) but any other prescription drugs should be avoided, and left to professionals. And if someone does need medical attention, be sure to tell the ambo's what the person has taken. Don't try to hide it for fear of police getting called in (which AFAIK isn't a normal practice unless someone dies). Leaving the medical staff to work it out themselves will waste valuable time. This thread has given me an idea for a FAQ-when to seek medical assistance.
[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: babydoc_vic ]
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sorry babydoc, i dissagree about the beta blockers. somthing like metoprolol Will decrease (edit: and slaps self) and heart rate even when on amphetamines. though beta blockers should never be given to asthmatics is there is a chance it could trigger an attach and antagonise some asthma meds like ventolin.
clonidine decreases sympathetic outflow so is able to decrease the excitory effects of amphetamines thus decreasing heart rate and blood pressure. though clonidine has depressant effects and these effects are worsend by other depressants like alcohol, benzos, etc. excess can lead to excessively decreased breathing and heart rate etc.
SirLSD
once again no one should give meds to anyone unless they are a trained professional.
[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: SirLSD ]
 
ive never heard of anyone spending a month in a mental hospital from speed, i do however no someone who ended up there from e.
My brother has been in and out of mental hospitals for the last 8 years mainly in i might add. That was from speed. so just cos u dont know anyone doesnt mean no one has. Drugs affect everyone differently, Its up to us to know our mental limits and stay aware of what the drugs we take are doing to our minds and bodies. It comes down to some people shouldnt touch any drugs, yet others can have them all. But either way moderation and education are the keys.
And back to the topic i think it is ridiculus to give someone drugs to try and stop a trip, just reassure the person that it is the drug making them think like that and it will ware off. Ask them whats going through there head and prove to them that its just the drug by talking reality to them. Remember its all just a state of mind and if you know your minds diciplines you can get back to them pretty easily. Understand your mind bfore you go screwing with it. Read my sig and remember it and you shouldnt cross the line.
[ 13 January 2002: Message edited by: Jonah ]
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sirLSD: I'm just quoting the MIMS. From what I can see, beta-blockers would not be the first choice of medical personnel for treatment of high BP associated with amphetamine toxicity. I found one article Amphetamine-Related Psychiatric Disorders which suggests using beta-blockers. Erowid suggests phentolamine, while this article Amphetamine Toxicity describes the risks associated with using a beta-blocker:
Treating with beta-blocker to control heart rate will leave an unopposed alpha activity that causes vasoconstriction They suggest benzo's as a first line, followed by nitrates or phentolamine. Largactil will lower BP too, but it has the risks I described earlier.
Clonidine may be OK, but it has the potential to interact with drugs that medical personnel may give, ie: haloperidol. Unless you have the equipment and training to take and assess vital signs, the anti-hypertensive discussion is pretty irrelevant. (I for one don't have a sphygmomanometer lying around!)
phase_dancers post in the "About Meth vs Amphetamine" thread reminded me that ammonium chloride may hasten urinary excretion of amphetamines.
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very good link that third one babydoc.
very good point about unappossed alpha stimulation!! i overlooked that. thanks!
SirLSD
 
In terms of bad experiences, one common cause of them is severe amphetamine-related paranoia. One alcoholic drink normally reduces it heavily.
Note: those who use amphetamines, try having one or two alcoholic drinks on the comedown - you wont believe the difference it makes :)
 
Never underestimate the power of a placebo. It'll suit some situations and won't suit others. I dare say the orange juice situation acted something like a placebo. Mind you, feeding someone that could end up in a hospital soon after isn't probably a good idea.
Just my experience, but positive reassurance and ensuring the setting is a positive one are the most important when it comes to a bad trip. Good Luck
 
sirLSD: I knew when I did the first post that there was an even better reaon not to give beta-blockers, but I couldn't remember what it was!
Just a thought on the benzo thing, even though in general they are a very safe medication, there is a small risk of a paradoxical response to benzo's. They can cause paradoxical excitation in some people, which can be a very bad thing in the case of someone who is hyperthermic. Increased activity could lead to a person with hyperthermia developing rhabdomyolysis (discussed in that third link I believe).
 
Originally posted by pundi:
Never underestimate the power of a placebo.
This is so true, especially when the person is open to suggestion, like when you're on acid. I know I've brought down trips using Vit C tablets, and I honestly can't see how medically this would work. I just put it down to that I'm convincing myself they're doing something so they do :)
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as someone who hasn't spent 6 years at med school, here's what I have learnt from this thread:
Dont Give someone on drugs other drugs!!!
Don't know about e-one else but I can not remember all the advise here and if I am on something myself I don't thing I'll remember to ask all the questions (eg; do u have athsma, allergies..) and the chance of an accurate responce from a scattered brain is decreased too.
I will play it safe, look after my mates and if the unfortunate happens I'll leave it to experts 100%
 
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