Ecstasy Misinformation

In this post: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=912515&postcount=13

The LD50 of MDMA is stated to be 80mg/kg of bodyweight, and "at least 50 or 60 good pills" at a weight of 70 kg.

First off, the LD50 for MDMA in humans isn't even known, and implying anything else is a disservice.

Secondly, and more importantly, whatever the LD50 is, it's certainly known to be FAR less then that. The DEA, and various other sources, guesses it to be somewhere in the range of 10 to 20 mg per kg bodyweight. Assuming a "good pill" is 100 mg, that would make 7 to 14 pills the LD50 for someone of 70 kg, or approximately 154 pounds.

Telling users that 50 or 60 is the lethal point is essentially telling them that 7 to 14 isn't, and that is extremely dangerous.

HOMELESS to SUPPORT....

the link is in DRUG FAQs, which does not have moderators, but we'll need sr. staff to check into this.

Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

I have done some quick searching and found your probably right in that it appears overstated but Im going to look into it further.

Cheers.

Can I ask support to send this thread, or at least a copy of it over to ED so we can have our friendly EDers involved in the searching for some definitive info.

Cheers.

I'll send it over.

I want to say that this is something that TamborineMan brought up awhile ago....damn memory!! *shakes fist*

Oh I wasnt aware of that, Thanks for bringing it over PFF.

It actually reminds me that we really need to do some updates on all our FAQs.

I was hoping that our many readers here might like to chip in with info to help us get an accurate LD50 or as accurate as possible.


Please include sources and arguments if necessary.

The most frequently cited source for MDMA's toxicity is a 1976 paper comparing the toxicity of mescaline and a few related compounds:

Hardman HF, Haavik CO, Seevers MH. Relationship of the structure of mescaline and seven analogs to toxicity and behavior in five species of laboratory animals.
Toxicol Appl Pharmacol 1973;25:299-309.
(full text: http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/33868)

MDMA is compound VIII in that paper, and the LD50s for various species are given as follows (page 3 of the PDF):
- Mouse (ip): 97mg/kg
- Rat (ip): 49mg/kg
- Guinea pig (ip): 98mg/kg
- Dog (iv): 14mg/kg
- Monkey (iv): 22mg/kg

("IP" stands for intraperitoneal, i.e. injected into the peritoneum)

Shulgin references this paper in his 1986 overview of MDMA, which includes a section on toxicity (page 7):

Shulgin AT. The background and chemistry of MDMA.
J Psychoactive Drugs. 1986;18 (4):291-304.
(full text: http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?A=ShowDoc1&ID=960)

I unfortunately can't find the paper he references, but he states that while the acute toxicity was confirmed by a later study to be ~98mg/kg in mice, the aggregate toxicity (e.g. after metabolism, etc.) was closer to 20mg/kg. He reconfirms the LD50 for primates from the 1976 paper as being 22mg/kg.

Personally, I think it makes the most sense to cite the 22mg/kg primate figure, with appropriate mention that it is the LD50 for primates and that the figure for humans is not known but likely close.

I think we can blame instances of stupendously high non-lethal human doses on dumb luck, lack of pure product, or some form of tolerance. And yes, I'm talking about the person we all know who's "not proud" of having taken 30 pills one night. I only mention this so that the argument is not swayed by these extreme outliers who may claim that high doses of MDMA are "safe".

wow, mouse can take a lot ._. so can a guinea pig... I guess the bigger you get, the less you can take? o_o
RGB, most chemical studies for humans are performed on rats are they not?
but either way I would doubt that a human can take 50mg/kg >>
just uh... dont take more than 2?

Don't bother searching for an exact MDMA LD50, as, surprise surprise, such tests have never been done. You can't get numbers from an experiment you never performed.

And I would suggest that, next to mentioning the 22mg LD50 for monkeys, we also mention that the estimated LD50 for humans is 10 to 20 mg. I have seen that number in multiple places, and so long as you make it clear that it is merely an estimate, you are doing the reader no disservice. The more information, the better.

Anyways, animal size is an interesting variable, but I have a hunch it has more to do with the structure of the brain.

Shortcake said:

wow, mouse can take a lot ._. so can a guinea pig... I guess the bigger you get, the less you can take? o_o
RGB, most chemical studies for humans are performed on rats are they not?
but either way I would doubt that a human can take 50mg/kg >>
just uh... dont take more than 2?

Click to expand...

Yes, most studies are performed on rodents, but it's more out of ethical/cost concerns, not because rodents very closely model human anatomy. Mice and rats have a more robust metabolic system than we do, and the enzymes they rely on to metabolize MDMA differ between us and them (for instance, they largely employ CYP2D1 to metabolize MDMA, while we use CYP2D6). This, rather than the size difference, could account for their ability to tolerate very large doses.

*shrug* then again, I'm just a computer science student with an amateur interest in pharmacology. If you're really interested in a good answer, I'd take it up with someone on the Advanced Drug Discussion forum, perhaps.

...

EDIT: Seizure once again brings up a very good point. You have to remember that these doses are scaled to body mass and not brain mass/metabolic rate/metabolizing enzyme concentration/etc. I agree that it makes sense to err on the side of caution and put up a conservative estimate. Nevertheless, the LD50 isn't exactly something to shoot for when determining dose, of course.

RGB said:

The most frequently cited source for MDMA's toxicity is a 1976 paper comparing the toxicity of mescaline and a few related compounds:

Hardman HF, Haavik CO, Seevers MH. Relationship of the structure of mescaline and seven analogs to toxicity and behavior in five species of laboratory animals.
Toxicol Appl Pharmacol 1973;25:299-309.
(full text: http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/33868)

MDMA is compound VIII in that paper, and the LD50s for various species are given as follows (page 3 of the PDF):
- Mouse (ip): 97mg/kg
- Rat (ip): 49mg/kg
- Guinea pig (ip): 98mg/kg
- Dog (iv): 14mg/kg
- Monkey (iv): 22mg/kg

("IP" stands for intraperitoneal, i.e. injected into the peritoneum)

Shulgin references this paper in his 1986 overview of MDMA, which includes a section on toxicity (page 7):

Shulgin AT. The background and chemistry of MDMA.
J Psychoactive Drugs. 1986;18 (4):291-304.
(full text: http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?A=ShowDoc1&ID=960)

I unfortunately can't find the paper he references, but he states that while the acute toxicity was confirmed by a later study to be ~98mg/kg in mice, the aggregate toxicity (e.g. after metabolism, etc.) was closer to 20mg/kg. He reconfirms the LD50 for primates from the 1976 paper as being 22mg/kg.

Personally, I think it makes the most sense to cite the 22mg/kg primate figure, with appropriate mention that it is the LD50 for primates and that the figure for humans is not known but likely close.

I think we can blame instances of stupendously high non-lethal human doses on dumb luck, lack of pure product, or some form of tolerance. And yes, I'm talking about the person we all know who's "not proud" of having taken 30 pills one night. I only mention this so that the argument is not swayed by these extreme outliers who may claim that high doses of MDMA are "safe".

Click to expand...

Brilliant RGB as always.

Anyone prepared to dispute this or are we all prepared to accept it for the FAQ?

I think we should go with Seizure's suggestion of adding an *estimated* human LD50 of 10-20mg/kg along with the 22mg/kg LD50 for primates.

Other than that, update away!

RGB said:

I think we should go with Seizure's suggestion of adding an *estimated* human LD50 of 10-20mg/kg along with the 22mg/kg LD50 for primates.

Other than that, update away!

Click to expand...

I know people who take 1gram of mdma pure crystal in a night sometimes in two doses with in 4 hours. It's frightening to think that they are coming close to OD on it every time we go out to a party/club.

I myself am 90kg. At 300mg of pure crystal I feel extremely uncomfortable as if much more and i would kick it.

I think its important to point out that LD50 does not mean thats how much you can safely take.

It means that at that dose 50% of people will die.

It means Lethal Dose 50%.

So its also quite possible that a lethal dose for say 25% could be only half of that ammount.

I'm pretty curious as to exactly what will go wrong when you ingest what would be a lethal dose of MDMA. Would neurotoxicity kill you, or would certain organs start to fail?

TearItDown said:

I'm pretty curious as to exactly what will go wrong when you ingest what would be a lethal dose of MDMA. Would neurotoxicity kill you, or would certain organs start to fail?

Click to expand...

I have read that due to body temperature increase; organ failure begins but I do not know anyone who has died from MDMA so I can not say definitively.

RGB said:

I agree that it makes sense to err on the side of caution and put up a conservative estimate. Nevertheless, the LD50 isn't exactly something to shoot for when determining dose, of course.

Click to expand...

Well, of course. I look at the LD50 as a dose that I should stay far, far away from, not as a hard limit. Even coming near it is irresponsible.

Moral Decay said:

I myself am 90kg. At 300mg of pure crystal I feel extremely uncomfortable as if much more and i would kick it.

Click to expand...

I've never consumed a particularly large amount, but there was one time that I had stupidly done a multitude of things to make the roll harder... I had just smoked a shit ton of weed with my friends, then a cigarette, and then put some menthol chapstick on (lol)... once I got back to the room, the weed started setting in, the nicotine high as well, and, lucky me, the second pill I had taken that night was just peaking.

I started tearing my clothing off, because I was getting so hot, and I'm pretty sure my heart was beating pretty fast too, but in all honesty, I can't remember. My mind started racing like crazy, and all I could think about was how much it hurt to simply be conscious, how afraid I was of what was going on in my head, etc etc etc. It felt like my brain was going to explode. I could barely manage to look at my friend across the room and quietly say "I think I'm going to pass out." Luckily, I didn't, but I did start sweating buckets. My friends were shocked at just how much water was pouring out of me. My clothes were literally dampened in a matter of seconds. That was when I was the most out of it. My friend asked me if I wanted someone to talk to me, and for once in my life, I said "no" because simply having to process the words seemed like an unbearable task at the moment. Then I started coming back down, and started vomiting, and was fine after that. But I can still clearly remember just how miserable I was.

... Sorry for the long story, lol, but I guess my point is that dose isn't the only important factor. I'm pretty sure that if I had smoked another couple of cigarettes, or done something else to increase the roll, I would have been in trouble. Has anyone else experienced this?

TearItDown said:

I'm pretty curious as to exactly what will go wrong when you ingest what would be a lethal dose of MDMA. Would neurotoxicity kill you, or would certain organs start to fail?

Click to expand...

Most MDMA-related deaths occur from overheating, heart failure, or dehydration. I imagine neurotoxicity is an issue, but I was under the impression that other complications tend to kill you before it gets to that point... the human body is surprisingly fragile.

This is some pretty interesting information. Due to a pretty significant lack of knowledge of LD50 [I never really planned on testing that limit anyways], I'm pretty shocked about the difference between a rodent and primate

MDMA neurotoxicity doesn't seem to have the potential to kill by itself.

Generally in overdose cases the person's body temperature gets much too high. Proteins called clotting factors (the stuff that seals up a cut or other wound and stops the bleeding) start to break down, falling out of your blood and attaching to whatever they happen to be near. Having clots all over in your blood stream is pretty bad by itself, but it also causes internal bleeding. Blood starts to leak into places it shouldn't be.

In the meanwhile, your muscles (which are generating most of the heat because of the drug's stimulant effects) start to break down, dumping all sorts of stuff into your blood, which essentially poisons your liver and kidneys. As the kidneys and liver break down, all the toxic stuff your metabolism is producing can no longer be neutralized or filtered out.

In the end, you might think of it as being baked alive until you're fatally poisoned by your own metabolism. With a side order of uncontrollable internal bleeding.

MazDan said:

So its also quite possible that a lethal dose for say 25% could be only half of that ammount.

Click to expand...

Not really

Thanks guys a really informative discussion!
I note though that the original estimates were made on the basis of peritoneal injection.
I should imagine (I may be wrong) that the LD would be higher for ingestion per os.