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Socrates vs. Epictetus/Epicurus views on the "good life"

OnToNeverland

Bluelighter
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Sep 9, 2009
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I know this is a little late, but hopefully some of you brilliant bluelighters can shed some light.

I have a, one question essay, test in the morning on this particular topic. The similarites and differences between each of these men's view on the good life. And thus this topic creates a lot of interest for me.

Socrates is more of the "what's good for the soul=a good life"
Epictetus/Epicurus is more along the lines of "Avoiding pain and pursuing pleasure to get relief from pain=a good life".

What are some of your views on the distinct similarities and differences? Do you have a certain way that you life your life that equals a good life?
 
Socrates is more of the "what's good for the soul=a good life"
Epictetus/Epicurus is more along the lines of "Avoiding pain and pursuing pleasure to get relief from pain=a good life".
that is rather caricatural and ill-nuanced


'socratic' eudaimonia (hello plato): His idea is to bring people to the 'right insight'. once this is attained, the correct praxis will follow by itself through itself. the nature of the human animal is reasonable, and thus through reason will he know how he must guide his actions in order to be 'aligned with himself/his nature'. it is this natural flowing alignment that is 'the good life' in virtue ethics. these virues are derived from rationally thinking the good. In order to reach this natural state however, a coming to knowledge is required, understanding the reason behind the virtues. How? by seeing where one falls short of the ideal, and asking why. thus coming to understand ones mistakes. though this is done by reason, pain is the tell tale sign of where to look. so pain should be viewed as an indication of one's 'growth edges', opportunities to further ones understanding, katharsis.

Epicurian ethics (hello democritus): here we start from the bottom up; ie. the senses and sensual experience, instead of the idea of 'the good'. His supreme end however is also an eudaimonia (happiness correlates with pleasure and morals). the difference with Platonic thought is the absence of a 'general good' (of the polis), epicurean thought does not go beyond the individual. every livin thing naturally strives for pleasure and attempts to avoid pain. so the value of every human life-expression should be measured by its pleasure. the pleasure of the flesh is valued less then pleasure of the mind (though it originates from the senses), for the latter spreads over past and future (memory and anticipation). epicurus states that the highest pleasure is reached in a state of rest. desires must be controlled, for they bring a state of tension/anxiousness. thus the wise man must not simply pursue pleasure and avoid pain. by means of his reason he must weigh his his options. some of his desires may cause more pain in the long run then the pleasure attained at first. sometimes undergoing pain can bring about greater pleasure in the end. thus when confronted with pain, it is not avoided, it is confronted in the question why. should it be avoided?

(non traditional interpretation: ) Since epicurianism also strives for a 'natural state of rest', which is (naturally) absent of pain, one can very well suppose that all pain ultimately has a good reason for undergoing it, and thus serves to lead one to this state. understanding pain means undergoing the pain. once one truly knows the quantity and quality of the pain; the desire it connects with can be deemed as invaluable, thus dissolved)

thus you see that both are actually not that diferent as a first glance might suppose. in my view, socratic is 'top-down', while epicurean is bottom-up. in both views reasonable insight in ones desires is the key. the difference lies in the measure of this reason. the first accounts for itself through the ideals flowing from the idea of the good, while the other takes individual pleasure as its starting point. but both are eudaimonistic: the good and pleasure are intimately intertwined. ethics are in service of the good life, which is a pleasurable life. though the first one goes along the virtue-route, thus taking precedence over the individual (universality). in terms of reaching their end goal, i'd say virtue ethics may be (too) 'rigid' (demanding the inhuman), while the epicurean calculus may be too 'supple' (prone to 'erroneous calculation': in a weak moment, or simply due to ignorance).
 
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I think in addition to azzazza !?'s excellent precis, one cannot discuss Socrates' view of the good life without reference to the Theory of the Forms (best explicated in the allegory of the cave), and therfore the Form/Idea of the Eudaimonia. I would place less emphasis on virtue ethics which really only formalise in Aristotle's works. Know thyself, align one's life to 'The Good' and keep several young boyfriends in awe of your dialectic dianoetics. Emulate the megalopsychiac, and engage in philosophia with your friends and foes. and quote the Apologia

'οὖτος μὲν οἴεταί τι εἰδέναι οὐκ εἰδώς, ἐγὼ δέ, ὥσπερ οὖν οὐκ οἶδα, οὐδὲ οἴμαι'

Can't comment on the Epicurians as I skipped that class, 'Con que je suis!'.:)

LOGOS
 
i did a search for the word 'eudaimonia' and ended up here and now want to try to contribute.

Epictetus a Stoic, and Epicureans shared a lot of the same ideas. As mentioned above the main aim was 'Eudaimonia' and the best path to this was 'ataraxia' i suppose a prominent agreement would be they both believed that the ability to enjoy life is derailed by two things in particular: a lack of control over emotions and not being present. Two ideas that are commonplace nowadays and show up often in eastern thought as well.

Main difference would be Epicureans thought you should leave city life for a simple life "in the garden" not get involved in politics and so forth. Stoics believed you should achieve eudaimonia wherever you find yourself and were deeply involved in the affairs of the times.

Socrates believed you should spend your life elucidating how stupid humans are. :\
 
Oh my dear, OnToNeverland, you know what they say about the life unexamined!

Think it this, you have what is truly good, and what is enjoyable.
In my opinion, something that may be enjoyable may not be good. Like sugar, almost.

If what is good for the growth of a soul encompasses both positive and negative thhings to perpetuate that cycle of learning, then I venture to muse that it is indeed good. The ultimate good I might add if it is growth you seek.

However, not everyone wants that. Some only want lay in the sugar, and could I blame them? That is the ultimate good for THEM. Happiness I believe.

So is there a difference between an ultimate good and a subjective good? I believe so, yes.

But the amygdala can mess us up sometimes.
 
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well look at this blast from the past :)

Epictetus a Stoic, and Epicureans shared a lot of the same ideas. As mentioned above the main aim was 'Eudaimonia' and the best path to this was 'ataraxia' i suppose a prominent agreement would be they both believed that the ability to enjoy life is derailed by two things in particular: a lack of control over emotions and not being present.

No and yes. i like to think of the idea of ataraxia ('tranquility' in Greek) in terms of a process or a path if you will. Even though it does have an end. Eudaimonia then, is something of a leap from that point. I sincerely believe both Epicurus and the Stoics looked at ataraxia that way as well, that is to say, a teaching. At its beginning (quite literally: a-taraxia) it implies something of a void or emptiness. Taraxis (CAS registry number 9010-30-4)* in Greek means a state of confusion or disorder, mostly in reference to the mind. So literally it means the absence/dissipation of said confusion. It is not actually defined in its own right, but instead by means of reference to something that it is not. I mainly wanted to stipulate that -because of that negative definition- this is not a state of control, but rather, the 'presence' of the absence of confusion. "the light of truth" if you will, or, that light(-ing) or 'space' in which things may appear as they truly are. As 'given', i suppose. This is a sort of a 'constant' underneath of everything (akin to the essence of Truth and Beauty which culminate in the Good when err.. platonized -lol).

Main difference would be Epicureans thought you should leave city life for a simple life "in the garden" not get involved in politics and so forth. Stoics believed you should achieve eudaimonia wherever you find yourself and were deeply involved in the affairs of the times.

True. Tho it is worth to recall that both share the same root which is referred to as ataraxia. Much like an introvert and an extrovert are both still human.

Socrates believed you should spend your life elucidating how stupid humans are. :\

Socrates' idea of irony can be a powerful catalyst in teaching ataraxia. Diogenes of Synope, now thats where the real marbles are at regarding human stupidity =D


Also, Eudaimonia itself is also a very interesting and thought provoking word etymologically speaking. the wiki does a pretty good job explaining that, esp. coupled with what i just said about ataraxia.



_
*oh boy. well that one was new to me :\
 
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Thanks for the informative posts azzazza! of course the only reason my post was so short and simple was because your post was so expansive and nuanced. ;) the part about Socrates was sarcastic. Socrates idea of the good life was to think then die!
 
haha i do have to admit that a rather big part of irony often be stupidity tho =D
 
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