Potential health issues regarding Poppy Seed Tea - Kidney stones, manganese toxicity

[This was posted in OD but was injected into the bowels of the mega-thread. Hopefully here it may generate some more discussion.]

I go through bouts where I take PST regularly and I do wonder what this may be doing to my health.

I remember reading once on BL someone posting about how his doctor told him to be careful with PST because poppy seeds contain a variety of oils and minerals that could be harmful when taken in large and/or repeated doses. I've been thinking about this for a while and decided to do a little research.

100g of poppy seeds contains on average 1400mg of calcium - or 140% of RDI (recommended daily intake). Given that an effective batch of PST for someone with no tolerance would have to at least contain 200-300g of seeds (at a very conservative estimate - for instance, I usually use +500g of poppy seeds), that is A LOT of calcium one is taking. Even if you account for the fact that you won't be getting all of the calcium from the seeds, just that which is being washed out - repeated use coupled with a standard diet is gonna be providing your body with way more calcium than it needs (especially if you take a daily multivitamin pill). Of course, this is all based on the assumption that a significant amount of calcium does get washed off the seeds - I may be wrong here.

Acute (short term) excessive calcium intake can contribute to the formation of kidney stones, which are friggin painful and can cause a whole host of complications. Excessive calcium intake can also lead to the formation of calcifications in blood vessles and organs.

It has also been shown that long term excessive calcium intake inferes with calcium absorption, has been linked to cardiovascualr disease and causes prostate cancer and ovarian cancer (this may be opening up a can of worms though because there is some debate over this).

100g of poppy seeds also contains 6.8mg of manganese or 341% of RDI. High exposure to environmental manganese can cause a nervous system disorder similar to parkinsons disease - though it must be noted that environmental exposure is different to dietary exposure. A high dietary intake of manganese does not usually produce symtpoms of manganese toxicity, however in severe cases of manganese consumption people have been known to develop a syndrome called "manganese madness" which causes hallucinations, insomnia, violent acts and irritability. Over consumption of manganese is also thought to cause impotence. Those with liver disorders or underperforming livers are more susceptible to manganese toxicity.

However, high doses of calcium can inhibit the absorption of manganese. Hahahaha, so it seems to come around in a loop.

Sorry for the long post, but these are only two of the many, many nutrients found in poppy seeds - and while I'm sure many will find fault with and dispute my assumption that these nutrients are effectively washed from the seeds during the process of making PST, my point is that PST may not be a very safe thing to indulge in on a regular basis (and here I'm sure alot of you are saying "No shit, Sherlock.")

For a long time I have been of the opinion that PST is fairly 'safe' stuff (provided you watch your dose and try not to get addicted). I'd be interested to know what you guys think. All the info I have cited is EASILY found on the net, just google poppy seed nutritional info, and then excess dietary complications for any of the nutrients listed.

I would also be very interested to know if any regular/long term users of PST have suffered from kidney stones or calcifications.


Respect and peace


EDIT: btw I was drinking a nice, long glass of PST as I wrote this

how much might this relate to pods?

Hmm, i was originally going to say "probably not much" - because the amount of seeds you consume from say, 6 decent size pods is not going to be anywhere near 500-600gms.

But I don't know if calcium is present is any large quantities in the pods and stems. Not that I know much about botany, but I would think that calcium would be found in higher concentrations in seeds because it is a critical nutrient required for the seed to germinate and grow and is required in lesser quantities in a grown plant. Whether this equates to a sizeable difference in calcium yield, I don't know.

Calcium is definitely present in a range of vegetables. I'm looking at http://www.inspiredlife.ca/articles/got_veg_calcium_content_in_vegetables/ and the average yield of calcium in a cup of the listed veges seems to be 40-50mg. Some veges have a very high calcium content. But as for poppy pods.... I can't find any information.

i really don't want kidney stones. aint worth the script

50mg per cup, that doesnt seem bad at all. 6 Tbsp is 0.375 cups, and 6tbsp is about what i would consume through the day

still, who knows what could result from mass consumption of dried plant matter.

especially that fungus, some pods you can tell right away, some pods i suspect have a small amount of fungus that you don't see/smell

A brita filter could remove some of the manganese, but I don't know if it would reduce the goodness of the poppy seed tea. Anyone know?

100g of poppy seeds also contains 6.8mg of manganese or 341% of RDI
100g of poppy seeds contains on average 1400mg of calcium

i imagine these stats have to do with ingesting 100 grams of seeds, when making pst you dont ingest the seeds just a bit of whats on the outside of them. id be pretty surprised if all those minerals were deposited in a quick bath to extract the morphine, codeine etc.

whoops, just saw that you kinda stated that at the end of your post, sry.

Enki said:

A brita filter could remove some of the manganese, but I don't know if it would reduce the goodness of the poppy seed tea. Anyone know?

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It seems a Brita filter would also remove calcium and magnesium as well (which is also found in some quanity in the seeds) - via cation ion exchange resins.... whatever the hell that means. Perhaps if there was someone who knew a bit about chemistry and the molecular structures of all the lovely alkaloids in PST we'd have an answer.

But I'm also reading elsewhere that Brita filters contain charcoal - and I recall reading on codeine.50g that charcoal is effective at absorbing codeine in the gut. Does this have anything to do with the price of eggs?

Thought I'd include a link to this post:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=6816444&postcount=47

A BL user reporting kidney stones after PST and PPT usage

Thanks for referring me to this Bludda. I indeed had my first kidney stone last year, and the year before I had used quite a lot of pods and poppy seeds. That post gives more detail, but as I said in the post bludda linked, I was looking for information about pods possibly causing my pain problems, which I hadn't considered before. Maybe I had considered it.. but.. I didn't want to think I might have done this to myself.

It should be noted I was working outside in the hot sun a lot before the stone and was likely dehydrated. I'm sure it didn't help. I think it was mostly the dehydration that caused the stone. Had I been on poppy seed tea during that time, maybe I'd have been drinking the extra 30 oz's or so a day that I drink when using PST, and might not have got a stone.. or maybe more calcium earlier in the year then less water intake from quitting using PST for awhile cause the stone.. who knows..

It's worth looking into.. these issues surrounding PST and pods.. the heavy metals topic and this one are very interesting.. should definitely be taken seriously.

i am heavily addicted to poppy pod (powder/orange juice is the route of admin, which means if the powder isnt fine enough, shards can damage the intestine, and this is responsible actually (im pretty positive) for an odd and embarassing symptom i have for a while after shitting (i made a thread about it in healthy living a long time ago; i smell like poo after i shit, esp during withdrawal: "leakage". TMI yeah?). i thought that was my only health problem

i have been peeing oddly, idk if thats because of the high dose of poppies, or kidney stones. opiates inhibit urination so idk

what can i take to either A. prevent formation of kidney stones, or B. prevent any potential kidney stones that are there from growing further?

and how easy is it to get tested for kidney stones, noninvasive testing i presume

and if i do happen to have or get kidney stones, from what i hear you don't get sedated when they stick the catheter up when they pull out the junk-------FUCK is that common? i want to be sedated while they pull it out. dont want to have to wait for it to pass for 6 months or have it pulled out while i'm awake

anyway, i need a poppy dose, starting to get hot flashes / sweaty

lol

A doctor friend of mine told me that cranberry juice is awesome for preventing and helping with kidney stones, as well as generally improving kidney and urinary tract health.

Cranberry juice raises the ph of your urine which helps dissolve kidney stones and prevents them from forming, plus it contains a whole lot of other goodies which maintain general urinary tract health (the doc told me it's good for women who have thrush or want to prevent getting thrush).

The problem with most cranberry juices (at least in Australia) is that they're watered down and are more expensive than most other juices at the supermarket.

I've been giving the cranberry juice ago after experiencing some kidney pains from my last big PST binge and I feel heaps better.

To respond to your last post Bludda, here in the US you can buy undiluted cranberry juice. It is VERY strong, but if you're used to drinking pod tea, you'll manage. It's expensive (around $8 USD), but it's very effective for clearing up urinary tract issues and maintaining kidney health. Another option is to buy good-quality capsules of dried cranberry at a health food store. Again, they're not cheap, but probably worth it as a preventive measure against kidney stones. You might want to do a search and see whether you think they're worth a try.

I've become pretty concerned about the potential health effects of pods because there really aren't any good studies out to reference and they're the only thing I've found that really works well for controlling my pain.

qwe said:

what can i take to either A. prevent formation of kidney stones, or B. prevent any potential kidney stones that are there from growing further?

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The Encyclopedia of Natural Medicineisbn 0-7615-1157-1 recommends: magnesium together with B6, glutamic acid, citrate, cranberry, and for being able to pass stones more easily khella (ammi visnaga).

Here is a website that supports the citrate suggestion:
http://www.urologychannel.com/kidneystones/prevention.shtml

urochannel said:

Prevention of renal stone disease depends on the type of stone produced, underlying urinary chemical risk factors, and the patient's willingness to undergo a long-term prevention plan.The patient will be asked to make lifestyle modifications such as increased fluid intake and changes in diet.

Orange juice and lemonade with real lemon juice are good sources of citrate and may be recommended as an alternative to water. Limiting meat, salt, and foods high in oxalate (e.g., green leafy vegetables, chocolate, nuts) in the diet may also be recommended. Medication may be prescribed and treatment for an underlying condition that causes renal stone disease may be necessary.

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And another that particularly favors orange juice:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/50980.php

medicalnewstoday said:

A daily glass of orange juice can help prevent the recurrence of kidney stones better than other citrus fruit juices such as lemonade, researchers at UT Southwestern Medical Center have discovered.

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And their chemistry based explanation:

medicalnewstoday said:

For instance, the citrate in orange and grapefruit juice is accompanied by a potassium ion while the citrate in lemonade and cranberry juice is accompanied by a hydrogen ion. Ions of hydrogen, but not potassium, counteract the beneficial effects of the high citrate content.

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"crangrape" works right?

^That article at medicalnewstoday indicates OJ is the really good stuff for kidney stone prevention, but most of the time when I come to a medical opinion research shifts and I end up having to revise.

CranGrape should be OK. Tastewise I'd like the mediation between overly sweet grapejuice and all to sour cranberry.

i have tons of orange juice, since that's the route of administration for poppies

but... would taking tagamet every day (inhibits stomach acid production; antihistamine, basically like a stomach antacid) offset any benefits from drinking acidic drinks?

and wouldn't drinking so much acidic drink, while preventing kidney stones, also do damage to the gut?

I suspect that acidic drinks like orange juice are not usually big issues in stomach discomfort. They hardly compare to the hydrochloric acid that we produce on our own. Individual tolerance of foods varies though. Avoid things that regularly cause problems. Healthy mucosa and being free of h. pylori are often bigger issues.

Tagemet doesn't play nicely with other drugs. It has a lot of cyp450 effects and as a result has many interactions.

medic8 said:

Shortcomings

3-D modelCimetidine is a known inhibitor of many isozymes of the cytochrome P450 enzyme system (specifically CYP1A2, CYP2C9, CYP2C19, CYP2D6, CYP2E1, and CYP3A4). This inhibition forms the basis of the numerous drug interactions that occur between cimetidine and other drugs. For example, cimetidine may decrease metabolism of some drugs, such as oral contraceptives.

Cimetidine interferes with oestrogen metabolism, enhancing oestrogen activity. This can lead to gynaecomastia.

Adverse drug reactions were also found to be relatively common with cimetidine.

The development of longer-acting H2-receptor antagonists with reduced adverse effects such as ranitidine proved to be the downfall of cimetidine and, whilst it is still used, it is no longer amongst the more widely used H2-receptor antagonists.

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^well yeah i have that info about cimetidine. i want to know about tagamet's relationship with enzyme (cytochrome P450) metabolism; timing and such of enzyme regulation/tolerance

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I've found some information that indicates that it would be practically impossible to get manganese poisoning from large and chronic use of poppy pods and poppy seeds.

It seems that the manganese is poorly absorbed by the gut and excreted extremely quickly - people who have high managenese diets have about the same level of manganese present in their bodies compared to those with normal diets.

http://www.streetdirectory.com/food_editorials/beverages/teas/manganese_content_in_tea.html

Furthermore, the average fatal dose of of manganese is considered to be about 10g - whereas the amount of manganese in 1kg of poppy seeds is 68.33 micrograms. This means that you'd need to consume 146350kg of seeds before you hit the danger zone!!!

So, at least massive use of tea won't lead to an irreversible and debilitating neurodegeneration and necrosis of internal tissues.