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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

IR Scan on a pill

rah

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 29, 2003
Messages
853
My friend did an IR scan on a blue daffy duck pill to find out what was in it.

She found:
MDMA
DMA
DXM or Methamphetamine (wasn't sure which one because they both contain similar compounds)

Here's the chart:
rotationofegraph05143ri.jpg


This is an infrared spectroscopy scanner
irspec.jpg
 
Wow, thats fucking cool man, but the dxm is a bit of a worry
 
I wonder if Dick Smith are selling any infrared spectroscopy scanners at the moment.

Before i go look up erowid, what is DMA?
 
Thanks rah. I haven't had a lot of experience interpreting multi compound IR's but I'll have a look later and see what peaks I can put to those functional groups.
 
Thats awesome, but can some one give me a brief explanation of what happened?

Infrared Spectroscopy just isn't something that registers with me.
 
Very Basically

A particular sample absorbs certain wavelengths in the vibrational infrared region of the electromagnetic spectrum.

The chart above represents the absorption in the infrared part of the electromagnetic spectrum across a range of in 400-4000 cm-1

So the x axis indicates the frequency

The y axis as labeled is the % transmittance. If nothing was absorbed, the line would theoretically be flat across the top of the page. Therefore the lowest peaks indicate maximum absorption.

Different chemical groups absorb in different regions.
 
If this pill even potentially contains dxm it needs to be chucked on PR as a dangerous pill. Awesome work rah, are you able to get a physical description of the pill as well?
 
^^ He did say DXM or Meth. Thats a pretty big or considering Meth is prob the most likely active adulterant in pills these days besides caffeine.
 
They look the same as the other daffy ducks on pillreports atm.

I've never really heard about DMA before, is it common in pills? What are the effects?
 
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rah, can you ask her whether she identified the compounds by comparison to IR's of pure samples (or data base examples) or whether she deduced the structures from the peaks in the spectrogram?
 
Unfortunatley she couldn't get any pure samples, so she deduced the structures from the peaks in the spectrogram.
 
I find it interesting she thinks DMA is there, as if it is the 2,5 isomer it has a 6-8 hour duration and is characterised by shakes and tremors. Perhaps it was an impurity.

I've a couple of IR's of the above, supoosedly of relatively pure compounds, so will attempt to see how she came to her conclusions. But I've got an assignment due, so I'll have to leave it for a bit.

Does this have a possiblility of being an on going thing?

PiHKAL # 54 2,5-DMA
 
^^ Yes this would be a big help (just tell her not to get done ;))
 
hahaha. why ez, WHEN now , thats right you can buy the bluelight EZSCAN!! $24.95. at your local oxford street chemist.
 
im not quite sure about this or not, but you might want to edit out the serial numbers of the spectroscopy scanner to protect your friends privacy.. if it was a work lab one or what ever...
 
No this won't be an on-going thing.

And the scanner was googled, thank you University of Florida.
 
His sample is too wet, you won't be able to tell much accurately. Get her to dry her sample first and use oven dried KBr.

As MDMA is a secondary amine you should look for
N-H stretch between 3360 - 3310 cm-1
N-H bend a bend around 1650 - 1550 cm-1
C-N stretch around 1190 - 1330 cm-1

And all the peaks in the low end of the spectrum are things like halides and sulfur bonded stuff (I don't think that's what you're looking for is it?)

IR
 
Thanks for the explanation and link Pseudo G.
...and to rah for the effort.

Pseudo G is right on the water thing. When preparing a KBr Infrared, where potassium bromide is mixed with the sample, the KBr must be anhydrous. It's common to dry it in a desiccator for a day or 2 before using. Many types of IR spectrometers exclude moisture during the analysis by purging the sample chamber with Nitrogen to reduce any CO2 or H2O.

Before turning to rah's attachment, I should point out that identifying several components in a single sample can be bloody difficult, particularly without some idea of what you expect to find. A statement in the paper by Coates serves to illustrate an important point;



One important factor to bear in mind is that a successful interpretation is based not only
on the presence of particular bands within the spectrum,
but also the absence of other important bands. Complete
classes of compounds can be rapidly excluded during the
interpretation by the use of no-band information….

… One of the main challenges in presenting a text on spectral
interpretation is to form a balance between the theory
that is needed to appreciate the links between molecular
structure and the observed spectrum and the practice...



Interpretation using comparison spectrograms of pure samples or recognition software, allows a more precise match up of multiple absorption peaks. But it would be a tall order, even for a limited range of expected substances mixed together, to be able to manually pick out and determine what peak represents what functional group belonging to what substance.

I'm sure there are those with years of experience -and are very good - with multiple compounds. However, to avoid the guessing factor, other techniques would normally be employed which would make the IR results more meaningful. A lab without recognition software or a samples database could use techniques such as high performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) to separate the compounds before an IR spec was done. Successful chromatography would give relatively pure samples of compounds from which an IR of each eluted compound would then reveal good detail.

If you read the excellent paper on IR on pseudo G’s above link, you’ll see on pages 2- 3 that different types of chemical bonds can create different types of interference to the IR signal. This means that the total Energy term is comprised of these various molecular influences on the transmitted IR energy. So, while absorption characteristics are mostly responsible observed characteristics, absorption is only part of the overall energy change – the IR signature- from which a molecule can be identified.
E total = E electronic + E vibrational + E rotational + E translational

2 THE ORIGINS OF THE INFRARED
SPECTRUM

In the most basic terms, the infrared spectrum is formed
as a consequence of the absorption of electromagnetic
radiation at frequencies that correlate to the vibration of
specific sets of chemical bonds from within a molecule.
First, it is important to reflect on the distribution of energy
possessed by a molecule at any given moment, defined as
the sum of the contributing energy terms (Equation 1):

E total = E electronic + E vibrational + E rotational + E translational
.1/
The translational energy relates to the displacement of
molecules in space as a function of the normal thermal
motions of matter. Rotational energy, which gives rise
to its own form of spectroscopy, is observed as the
tumbling motion of a molecule, which is the result of
the absorption of energy within the microwave region.
The vibrational energy component is a higher energy
term and corresponds to the absorption of energy by a
molecule as the component atoms vibrate about the mean
center of their chemical bonds. The electronic component
is linked to the energy transitions of electrons as they
are distributed throughout the molecule, either localized
within specific bonds, or delocalized over structures, such
as an aromatic ring. In order to observe such electronic
transitions, it is necessary to apply energy in the form of
visible and ultraviolet radiation (Equation 2):

2/ E = hv frequency /energy .



With the IR spectra of a mixture of compounds, such as that posted by rah, absorptions for various functional groups making up the different substances will often overlap. This means that a particular functional group of substance X will be masked by one on substance Y. Combined peaks from X & Y may also present many peaks with few spaces, thereby 'crowding' the result. From the earlier mentioned quote from Coates; a successful interpretation is based not only
on the presence of particular bands within the spectrum, but also the absence of other important bands.



Lets turn now to spectra from a few of the substances mentioned. rah also said via PM that the analyst thought psilocybin may be present.

As the water component in the rah’s result is so high, upper band resolution (3570 –3200 cm-1) is really affected by O-H stretching. So, lets look at the region below 2000 cm-1.

There is considerable detail in the region, but it’s often the most difficult to correctly resolve. rah's sample contains many peaks around this region which overcomplicates the spectrogram. So rather than try to allocate and explain various functional groups (as seen in the tables in Coates’s paper), lets instead compare spectrograms of known and suspected samples, to rah’s IR spectrogram

Comparison of “Blue Daffy Duck” IR spectra to MDMA IR spectra

MDMA_IR_compare.gif




Comparison of “Blue Daffy Duck” IR spectra to Methamphetamine IR spectra

MA_IR_compare.gif




Comparison of “Blue Daffy Duck” IR spectra to Psilocybin & DXM IR spectra

Psilocybin-DXM_IR-compare.gif


For all 4 comparisons, the circled areas on the "blue daffy duck" spectrogram were those numerically closest to the stated principle wavenumber peaks.

I can’t locate a reference for any of the DMA isomers, but as previously mentioned, I doubt very much this would be present and looking at the relevant expected positions of the functional groups, I don’t see expected methoxy ether peaks around 2820-2810 cm-1


These pictures don’t really explain what is in the tablet, but they should serve to illustrate what can be expected from different IR’s of the same compound. While there is some variation often noticed between results from different machines, this should normally not be a problem, as a pure sample is often used as a reference.

It certainly appears there is more than one compound present in the blue daffy ducks, as well as too much water in the prepared sample. The sample really needs to be run again, preferably by first separating the major components.

IR info from "Clarke's Analysis of Drugs and Poisons"

I should also add; in matching wavenumbers of the "daffy duck" spectrogram, only one peak directly corresponded to a peak listed in Clarkes (DXM), however, this in no way confirms DXM was present.
 
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