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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Extracting MDMA from pills?

Wobbled

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 29, 2005
Messages
48
This is a question for people with a background in chemistry or people with any idea on if this type of thing is possible.

I'm wondering if it's possible to extract the pure MDMA from pills to be able to bypass all the bad stuff if any in the pill and if so could there be a write up somewhere for the people who want to go through this process?

I think it would be quite possible I dont know but if it was possible wouldnt that make what you have much more safer than to consume a pill which could have unknown contaminants in it which could also be harmful in the long run.
 
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The ease of which MDMA can be extracted from pills depends entirely on what other substances, both active and non-active, are present.

Assuming the excipients and binders are insoluble and MDMA is the only active ingredient, then a simple water extraction should suffice. MDMA is very soluble in water. However, if there is any form of starch present then it's advisable to use cold water as the starch may hydrolyse and dissolve. This will make the MDMA a gluggy mess and further work will be required to extract it.


For a water extraction: Crush / grind the tablets to a fine powder. Place in water ( ~ 5-10mL max per tablet) and stir for a few minutes. Filter out the insolubles through a coffee filter paper in a funnel and discard the paper and gunk. Then evaporate off the water and MDMA should remain**. Evaporation can be done by placing the liquid in a bowl and sitting it on top of a table-side lamp. Make sure it is monitored to avoid overheating of the lamp.

** Using a minimum amount of water will obviously hasten the process.

To be sure you've extracted all the MDMA, repeat the exercise and compare each of the evaporated products. If things went well in the first, no crystals/ powder should remain in the second.

The powder can then be washed in a filter funnel with cold DRY acetone (3x 10mL aliquots/ per tablet). It's important the acetone is absolutely dry. This can be done by placing some epsom salts in the oven on low for 2 hours. Then place the dry epsom salts in the acetone. Leave overnight then filter/decant the acetone. Use within a short time otherwise the acetone will absorb more water.

Remember that each tablet will likely only contain between 50-120mg of MDMA. This small amount may prove difficult to handle, so if you're planning on extracting from several pills, a slightly larger batch will probably prove easier to work with. To be sure though, and to avoid wasting product, it might pay to do a smaller (1 tablet) run first.
 
Thanks phase_dancer, this is exactly what i've been looking for, you have been extremely helpful, thank you.

Just to clear things up let say there was some amphetamines (meth or others) in the pill will this stuff come out in the extraction?

If I end up with a pile of goo it most likely means that there is starch in it and is there anything else which could cause this pile of goo to happen?

If so can the goo dry up or will it stay goo and is the starch anything to worry about?

Why would there be starch in the pill in the first place?

Is the washing with acetone extremely necessary for obtaining pure MDMA or can the powder/crystal be pure before wash?
 
Just to clear things up let say there was some amphetamines (meth or others) in the pill will this stuff come out in the extraction?

Yes. Separating meth and MDMA would require somewhat more sophisticated procedures i.e. recrystallisation, solvents and chromatography.

If I end up with a pile of goo it most likely means that there is starch in it and is there anything else which could cause this pile of goo to happen?

It could mean other water soluble products are present.

If so can the goo dry up or will it stay goo and is the starch anything to worry about?

No, starch shouldn't hurt, but you'd want to identify it as that before deciding it's harmless. (strach ID - potassium iodide test). Establishing if it's the only soluble compound present is more difficult. Starch will soak up water so if this is the cause, you could probably dry it better using freshly heated silica gel. Details can be found elsewhere on this board.

Why would there be starch in the pill in the first place?

Probably isn't but it's one of the things that can be used an excipient.

Is the washing with acetone extremely necessary for obtaining pure MDMA or can the powder/crystal be pure before wash?

It may be relatively pure before the wash, but the acetone washes will clean out some of the slightly soluble impurities that might be present, and also some of the impurities from the synth which may or may not have been washed out effectively. Note that you will lose some product if doing these washes, that why they aren't done in the first place. But if the acetone is really cold and dry this will be minimal.


If you still have trouble, it might be more worthwhile to persue a different tablet, as the procedures required to clean out other compounds that have similar solubilities begin to become quite involved.
 
With regard's to the washing of the MDMA powder being necessary, If not washed you say there maybe soluble impurities and some of the impurities from the synth, Will any of this then be dangerous in consuming the MDMA? I'm really quite keen to try and seperate MDMA out of pill and consuming it after reading all of this.
 
phase_dancer, you should give courses in how to write clear, informative and 'inspiring' posts!

Sorry if this is a stupid question but I couldn't get a clear answer through google: what exactly is 'dry' acetone? I have a big can of acetone on my desk but it is a liquid (it says "100% acetone 1090"). Is dry acetone a powder or something?

On a more passing note, why exactly is dry acetone necessary?
 
dry acetone means no water. I assume if water is present it will dissolve the MDMA
 
I tried this little trick last night. I've tried it before, but never got results. This time however, I've got a nice little pile. However, I can gaurentee that the majority of the pile is sugar, and the rest MDMA. What is something I can use that sugar wont dissolve in, but mdma will? That way I can filter it again and be left with MDMA.

Cheers
 
With regard's to the washing of the MDMA powder being necessary, If not washed you say there maybe soluble impurities and some of the impurities from the synth, Will any of this then be dangerous in consuming the MDMA? I'm really quite keen to try and seperate MDMA out of pill and consuming it after reading all of this.

Apart from the hopefully benign ingredients used to formulate the tablet, the impurities in a tablet are those present in the MDMA itself. They are left overs, side reaction substances or solvents used in the manufacturing process. In higher grade MDMA, there may be relatively few impurities that together only form a very small percentage of the MDMA weight. In shitty quality stuff, these may form 10% or more of the total MDMA weight.

If the MDMA going into a tablet contains these impurities, then along with the MDMA, binders and excipients, it's obvious that these impurities are also consumed when one consumes the pill.

Solubility

Everything has some degree of solubility in water, as everything does in different solvents. This can be and is often very low e.g. MDMA HCl salt in a non-polar solvent like acetone or freebase MDMA in water. In these examples, very little will dissolve in the solvent but some small amount does. This is also temperature and pressure related.

So when a water extraction is performed on a water soluble compound mixed with other compounds that are termed "insoluble", although most of the insoluble impurities will be removed (will stay in the filter), a very small amount of those insolubles actually dissolves and passes through with the water soluble compound being purified.

Likewise, if there are many actives present, or highly soluble impurities from the synthesis, these too - in significantly larger amounts - will also dissolve and therefore also pass through with the MDMA. But by doing multiple recrystallisations, levels of impurities can often be reduced to an almost insignificant level.

Most primary and secondary amines facilitate purification because they can exist in either a protonated form (salts) and a non-protonated (freebase) form, both of which as explained have very different solubility characteristics. Chemists make use of this handy fact when attempting to purify amines.

Washing with a solvent like acetone will remove some of these water insolubles, but to do the job properly you need to either know what these impurities are and therefore design a suitable solvent system, or have a lot of disposable product available from which you can make a very pure sample through trial and error. A good range of solvents is also often required. However, understanding how mixed solvents work can minimise this considerably.

Chromatography

Sometimes when a mixture of amines contains compounds that are chemically quite similar, such as methamphetamine and MDMA, the solubilities in a range of solvents is also similar, making separation virtually impossible using crystallisation alone. In this situation, use can be made of their respective charge/ mass ratios and a chromatographic method is often employed. Whether it's gas chromatography (GC), high performance liquid chromatography (HPLC), elution or column chromatography, or Thin layer Chromatography (TLC), the theory is essentially the same.

If, say, column chromatography is employed (a simpler form requiring less specialised equipment) the amine freebase is dissolved in a mobile phase (solvent or multiple solvents) which is then passed through a stationary phase (column) often comprising of a glass tube packed with alumina or silica. Normally the system is under pressure. The relative affinities of the different substances in the mixture for either of the two phases, means one passes through faster than the other. As can be seen, designing suitable mobile and stationary phases constitutes a little bit more than a simple acetone wash. (I should add that while many of the solvents are inexpensive when purchased in quantity, the silica is expensive)

And that's what's awkward about doing a complete separation at home or in any non-approved setting. Having lots of solvents, columns, separating funnels, evaporation dishes etc around the house starts to look more like production than a Harm Reduction attempt. While your intention may be simply to clean up something, if that something is a mix of similarly structured compounds, the techniques required become much more involved. The criminal charges you might face should you get caught may end up being far worse for your general wellbeing than the risks posed by the original impurities [?] :\


The Dry Acetone Wash

But appreciating that many people are concerned for their health, as was earlier explained, there's a good chance that in pills that have been both reagent tested, and are considered by experienced users to contain only MDMA, then in most instances it should be fairly easy to isolate and purify the active ingredient to some degree.

As to the importance of an acetone wash; considering that much MDMA powder that's reported here is described as brown and inconsistent in colour and/ or strongly smelling of safrole, then an acetone wash might be very desirable. As mentioned, a more sophisticated approach to washing is to use multiple solvent mixtures. The basics have been mentioned on these boards before.

The main thing to remember with any of this, is that every wash, no matter how carefully it is done, will lose some amount of product - be it small with an optimised setup.

Sorry if this is a stupid question but I couldn't get a clear answer through google: what exactly is 'dry' acetone? I have a big can of acetone on my desk but it is a liquid (it says "100% acetone 1090"). Is dry acetone a powder or something?

On a more passing note, why exactly is dry acetone necessary?

Dry acetone is necessary in the above process because MDMA HCl (an acid salt) is soluble in water. Acetone is a liquid, dry or not. It's just that it will absorb a small amount of water over time. As mentioned, washing the crystal with wet acetone will result in more of the MDMA dissolving in the acetone. In other words, you'll lose more product. BTW, this should only be done with high purity acetone. Paint thinners or nail polish remover are not good enough.



What is something I can use that sugar wont dissolve in, but mdma will? That way I can filter it again and be left with MDMA.

Firstly, have you tasted it to confirm it's sweet? If you're sure it's sugar or glucose, then you should find it can be separated using alcohol. Methanol or ethanol would be best, but Isopropanol should work. Note that MCC (microcrystalline cellulose) while not really soluble in water, does disperse well in water. Therefore, if it's present it needs to be left standing in the MDMA /water solution and hopefully it should fall out of solution over time. Centrifuging would be another option.

Assuming it's a simple sugar; the key would be to use a minimum of alcohol. The sugar is less soluble in the alcohol, so you could try cooling the alcohol and repeating the exercise. Normally, if that didn't work, then the freebase would be prepared and extracted with diethyl ether or a similar solvent. This would then be washed with distilled water, and recrystallised with HCl gas or acid (pool acid). The crystals would be best formed by dissolving the salt in a mixture of isopropanol/diethyl ether, or isopropanol/n-hexane. As the solvent evaporates the crystals will form.



Comments of a Deterrent Nature

I'm not sure this has been a very clear easy to follow post. Regardless, I feel I should once again mention the potential for such operations to viewed as manufacturing. It's hard to see where the line is drawn, both for the cleaning person, and for any law enforcement officers that might come knocking during the operation. In this light, one has to ask whether it's worthwhile or not.

Personally speaking, I don't believe it is worthwhile, but then again I don't have drugs in my house either, or even take them much any more, and I certainly never perform any such procedure on any illicit compound. Think carefully before deciding it's worthwhile. Perhaps a better alternative is to find a better dealer, a trustworthy one, or one that sells clean, odourless MDMA powder.....'mmm'... I can hear you say, 'easier said than done...'
 
Ask a good question, get a great answer
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Love your work p_d :)
 
Thanks for all that p_d. I'll give it a go.




phase_dancer said:
'mmm'... I can hear you say, 'easier said than done...'


Not always true for me. I just like to make these things work and see results that I've made.

Good point re: cops though.
 
The main question for me is how would one separate MD*A from other amphetamines? Is it possible to do with consumer-available materials?
 
This is an excellent thread and an excellent read. The best that has popped up on BL in quite some time.

May have a couple of questions of my own after some quick research
 
Thanks so much for that phase_dancer. I think you should seriously consider reformatting that post into a sticky thread.
 
Would it be possible to come up with an average weight of active ingredients if you were able to do this extraction on 10 pills, during this test each extraction showed that the pills had between 80mg - 90mg of powder or crystal (I think the pill would have to be very constant and of a hiqh quality make to achieve results so close)

This test would be for people who could actually be bothered with a test like this and have the pills to do so.
 
Would it be possible to come up with an average weight of active ingredients if you were able to do this extraction on 10 pills...

Yes, if your extractions were done carefully.


Do you mean by that that all the ingredients for that are consumer available?

Simple chromatographic techniques are widely used for separating components in mixtures such as essential oils, ink formulations, petrochemical mixtures, pharmaceuticals, foods and beverages, etc, etc. If a person approached a chem supply business with a request for column chromatography and/ or thin layer chromatography equipment, and didn't appear sus i.e. had a valid reason for wanting it, IMO, it's unlikely anyone would bat an eyelid. As can be seen (below link) neither n-hexane nor ethyl acetate are listed on the code of practice diversion paper, and buying the glassware specifically for dry column chromatography would hardly be likely to stir up suspicion if the request was presented appropriately.

Code of Practice for Supply Diversion into Illicit Drug Manufacture

Here's a few examples of the apparatus normally used in this form of elution chromatography.

Dry_Column_Chromatography.gif


An introduction to the procedure can be found hosted on Erowid (Rhodium)

Dry Column Vacuum chromatography
Vacuum can be replaced with regulated air pressure applied to the top of the column.

To use this method effectively, another testing procedure also needs to be employed. Thin Layer Chromatography (TLC) is probably best suited and can be used in conjunction with reagent testing. TLC can usually indicate if there's more than one compound present.

After the chromatograph (TLC plate) has been made -and sometimes before- it will be sprayed with different reagents. Sometimes the sprayed plates will be viewed under UV light. 2 or more plates might be done using different ratios of the mobile phase solvents. By using multiple TLC plates, it's usually possible to see if a sample is close to pure or not. If it's pure, then on all plates it will appear as one spot. A mixture of compounds will usually appear as 2 or more spots, or perhaps be completely indistinguishable (as one big unseparated spot). By making plates using different ratios of solvents, what doesn't separate properly on one plate might do on another. Advancing the technique further, it's possible to do quantitative analysis with TLC.

As TLC itself is an analytical procedure requiring no illicit or restricted chemicals, I've considered releasing such kits myself. However, there are some problems with the idea as some of the solvents normally used aren't suitable for consumer handling IMO. Ethanol is often used to extract, and must be 95% pure, so there'd also be problems with any kit that contained appreciable quantities of that. But TLC is a great technique, slightly fiddly at first, but simple to do. TLC takes the use of reagents to another level, with many of the testing reagents developed initially for use with TLC.

Here's a link to a basic quicktime movie on TLC (sourced via Rhodium hosted on Erowid)



More interesting TLC and other stuff on chromatography can be found via erowid's archive of Rhodium files.

After all that, I'd better mention the level of expense involved in TLC and dry column chromatography. The solvents must be high grade, and so are relatively expensive, but not too much so. The Ethanol is expensive unless you have an exemption, as a duty is added on to the otherwise cheap price. The glassware costs several hundred dollars as does the silica or alumina if a larger column is used. And the TLC plates are bloody expensive. Other equipment can be expensive, although the basic requirements such as beakers, watch glass covers, glass capillaries etc are only a few bucks.

Of course, I only post this sort of stuff to lure people into the study of science. If someone was to spend that sort of money, I'd much rather see them putting it to better - completely legal - uses. Which brings me to the important reminder......

Warnings Restated

Again I need to remind that once this glassware has been used for the above purpose, it will be contaminated with traces of any drugs put through it. That means that having this gear and chemicals (solvents) lying around could create very awkward circumstances if ever discovered, either during a raid, or simply from routine police enquires. This can, and often does happen. So I don't advocte using it for the purpose of illicit drug refinement. Personally, although it might appear extreme, if I suspected a controlled substance had even touched any glass I owned, I'd throw it away without a second thought.
 
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