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Stuart
25-08-2005, 18:54
i was thinking, once laboratory testing is introduced in Australia (im trying to be positive!!) who here would send in one of there pills that you have payed *insert amount of money here* to get tested by a laboratory for the benefit of others.

i can see a lot of people not wanting to 'waste' a pill just to get a laboratory test on it...

what is your opinions on it, who would be willing to donate some of there weekend fun for the greater good of harm reduction!

lok1
25-08-2005, 18:59
Me.

Rubber_Duck
25-08-2005, 19:08
Interesting question.

i assume, they would test the pills in similar way that we do, but with more complicated chemicals. I only use a couple crumbs of my pill.

SO id send them, the un-licked baggy, that should be enough in there. hehe

charlesbronson
25-08-2005, 19:44
if australia had a public submission testing program, you could probably expect it to work much like the US version - ecstasydata.org

that would mean you would have to submit a whole pill - so (sadly) no crumbs for testing while the greater portion waits to be gobbled once the results come through.

and as far as $ sacrifices go, without a fully funded operation, you could expect to submit not only one of your disco-bizkits , but also a 'co-payment'. how much? that would depend on the amount of funding from other sources supporting the program. ecstasydata.org request a US$30 copayment, but at the moment the only option is US$115, which is the full cost of having a pill tested, because they are out of funds.

personally, i'd be willing to dish out a pill for testing, especially if the actual amount of active components were published, rather than just the ratio of active chemicals.

does someone know how other public-submission lab testing projects operate?

Tronica
26-08-2005, 02:05
In the UK, they had an amnesty bin operating in a nightclub - people would donate pills and other drugs - then the contents of the bin was taken away, tested and published. They obviously pay a lot less for their drugs in the UK to make this work.

In the Netherlands, the Drug Information Monitoring System (DIMS) involves anonymous providers bringing drug samples to different offices who provide testing facilities. Information about content is given orally and only on the drug samples they personally delivered, however if a highly dangerous tablet is analysed, warnings are issued quickly and widely. My understanding is that the samples are not returned - they are destroyed.

It might be difficult to ID a pill based on a sample of crumbs - but it would be possible to test the content of the crumbs I'd imagine.

phase_dancer
26-08-2005, 02:37
A whole pill or least a relatively large amount would be desirable for lab testing. This is because some substances, particularly some amines are hard to extract and test for using HPLC or GC/MS (the considered standard). Sometimes derivatives have to be made and several runs be done.

As for who would send in a whole pill for testing; I'm sure dealers everywhere would be keen as mustard :\ ......

That statement, or words to that effect have been bandied about in some corners of the outspoken opposition to lab testing.

And within that above statement is another school of thought on the virtues or otherwise of testing this way. Although I don't agree with this approach, there is nonetheless some merit to the idea of only releasing the results of pills other than those which contain MDMA. This would tend to limit those dealers wanting a free add for pill X, "...now proven by lab science to only contain MDMA"

Weak as it may sound, you can bet opponents to lab testing will raise this argument.

ar_gee
26-08-2005, 03:39
I would give the odd one if all stat's are provided.

Surely, there would be legal implications for sending drug's through the mail - how would you get around that?

Sounds like a good idea in theory, but there is a lot of other related issues involved.

eggman
26-08-2005, 06:06
Excellent point. Given the prices paid in Aus compared to Europe for example, the comparisson of any such program that *may/may not* happen here to those programs in Europe would be flawed. Whilst personally I would do it, i could imagine that 200 others would not. As such, our data would really be lacking :p

Same question goes for people who have thier pills tested by groups like enlighten for example. From what I have seen and been told many of the people who have been told that thier pill contains some bad shit still take it!

phase_dancer
26-08-2005, 07:43
The logistics involved in getting the pills to a testing facility have been discussed before. The most sensible thing to do would be to have an amnesty bin as Tronica has mentioned. Mailing would be out of the question unless special provisions were made. It is a federal offense to send drugs through the mail.

Just where these would be located, and just who they would be run by is another subject of possible contention. That meaning the authorities if ever in agreement, would most likely would want an authorized body such as the police to handle it, whereas the wider community would probably prefer a group such as Enlighten.

Tronica
26-08-2005, 10:33
Same question goes for people who have thier pills tested by groups like enlighten for example. From what I have seen and been told many of the people who have been told that thier pill contains some bad shit still take it!

I do wonder why people would bother to get the pill tested if they are just going to take it anyway. Depends on the individual's definition of 'bad shit', whether ketamine is bad or just different, whether to take a speed bomb, etc. Especially if you've already bought the pill, and you are familiar with the effects of speed or K, I'd imagine you'd still take it - even though others might see that as strange because the pill was meant to be ecstasy...

As to why people would take a pill that has had no reaction to a marquis or mandelin test, well that has me pretty confused!

Tronica
26-08-2005, 10:37
Although I don't agree with this approach, there is nonetheless some merit to the idea of only releasing the results of pills other than those which contain MDMA. This would tend to limit those dealers wanting a free add for pill X, "...now proven by lab science to only contain MDMA"

Weak as it may sound, you can bet opponents to lab testing will raise this argument. [/B]

For this very reason, the DIMS system (from the netherlands) only releases infomration on pills considered to be very dangerous - including those with very high MDMA. Being this system is the most sophisticated in the world, I wonder if an approved service anywhere would be able to release all information. Being approved has meant they have access to the laboratories, the staff, the funding... and it does get around the issue BT has described above - providing precise info on 'awesome pills' is great advertising for dealers.

Then again, if users could purchase better pills with this information - then perhaps there would be less shite pills - and this would reduce drug related harm in the long run :)

dada
26-08-2005, 13:31
imagine a policeman posted at an amnisty bin just cuffing cunts who extended their hand

aBitOfAWorry
26-08-2005, 14:19
I would submit pills but only if they failed to show MDMA with the standard reagent tests.

How easy would it be for a lab to determine the quantity of a substance in a pill? Eg your submitted pill has 120mg MDMA? This would be more valuable information in terms of dosage etc but I imagine very hard to do.

Cheshire Cat ^..^
26-08-2005, 14:39
Originally posted by aBitOfAWorry
How easy would it be for a lab to determine the quantity of a substance in a pill?
It's not about whether it's easy or not. It's about the fact that a proper lab with GC/MS will give you exact percentages on every chemical present in a substance and the exact mass.

Just because of that I'm ready to spend 50$ and sometimes even more in order to definately know what substances are inside that pill.

Everyone says harm minimisation. Anti-prohibition. Etc. Well, boys and girls, this is where it starts. With knowledge.

phase_dancer
26-08-2005, 15:34
How easy would it be for a lab to determine the quantity of a substance in a pill? Eg your submitted pill has 120mg MDMA? This would be more valuable information in terms of dosage etc but I imagine very hard to do.

Nah, it's pretty easy really. In principle, the drug is extracted (usually with an optimised, buffered solution). It's then run through the GC/MS. It's retention time and mass spectra are noted. Different substances have different retention times at particular settings on the chromatograph.

A known quantity of a pure sample of the chemical that the peaks are thought to represent is then run through the machine. The height/area of the GC peaks of unknown are compared against the height of the known sample, and presto, the amount in the unknown is established.

Black Octagon
26-08-2005, 16:18
I'd definitely do it.

chugs
26-08-2005, 16:25
wouldn't it just be easier for the state to produce MDMA instead of modifying the crimes act and pushing through huge amounts of legislation whilst trying to make other drugs illegal - why stop at MDMA, why not heroin testing or coke testing?

fcuking_in_heaven
26-08-2005, 18:01
I'm pretty sure any 'decent' big time dealer/manufacturer would love to be able to submit their pills in for testing just to add a coupl of dollars for the real deal. No one in their right mind woukd buy thousands of bunk pills. They would much rather pay a higher price for a better quality product, that can be proved. You get what im sayin?

fuck in heaven

eggman
26-08-2005, 20:06
Originally posted by chugs
wouldn't it just be easier for the state to produce MDMA instead of modifying the crimes act and pushing through huge amounts of legislation whilst trying to make other drugs illegal - why stop at MDMA, why not heroin testing or coke testing?

^ and there is the sensible answer to this whole arguement.

Govt produced pills, supplied in a pack of 25 pills with the % content of MDMA, K and Amphetimine listed on the side of the packet.

Hang on... I just woke up from a dream, thats 'safe' and 'tax revenue producing' drugs like alcohol and tobacco I am thinking of, sorry! 8(

che_melbourne
27-08-2005, 05:44
^^^ wouldnt that just induce drug spiking and lacing instead of drink spiking and cig lacing =D

but if this system worked like pillreports, posting the size and pic of a pill and its contents, wouldnt that just cause shit pills getting pressed alike? if the results wern't released public and the donor got a printout of the contents, couldnt this printout be re-used to promote a shit pill. this system in the end does not help dealing other than a large quantity buy where the buyer can get one pill sent off whilst the rest stay in holding where they cannot be switched. it does however help the end user, letting them know exactly what they are taking except.... oops.... you dont have anything to take and the ~150 u just spent on the pill and its testing could have been put to better use buying more drugs. unless the costs of pills being tested are covered or subsidised then i dont see this taking off

peaked
27-08-2005, 07:29
I cant say I really agree with what your saying che_melbourne. Shit pills already get pressed alike, though in most cases there are subtle differences between them which can be used to identify the different batches. In terms of creating two 100% identical looking batches, Im not too sure this would be very likely. The only people who could really do this would be the people who made it, and surely they would care about the reputation of their product over getting a few quick dollars. Other people can and do try to replicate good batches, but to get it perfect they would need exactly the same (atleast dimension wise) press, as well as a product to be pressed that was exactly the same colour. To get the same colour, they would probably need to use very similar ratio's of ingredients as the original producers did, and presumably they wouldn't know this information (and hence there would be a variation between the batches).

Sure, dealers could use it, but IMO a big time dealer would be well aware of exactly what the pills contain when they purchased them. If not from simply having a strong relationship with their source, I would hazard a guess that if someone was purchasing thousands of pills, they would atleast use reagents to be sure they were getting the real deal. Infact, unless the dealer was getting very strong pills, I cant imagine them wanting to submit only "average" strength pills so that everyone can be aware they are only average. IMO it would mainly be the end users who submit them, and those that do would probably be the more harm minimisation orientated people, whom care about getting clean MDMA and being able to dose themselves accordingly. I know I certainly would be willing to pay $50 or so (ontop of the cost of the pill) just to be entirely sure what it contains.

Special-T.B.K
28-08-2005, 04:37
I can see ppl doing it- but in the USA Im gathering pills are a hell of alot cheaper. Much like the UK!

No- They would only need residue in the bag'

the machines they use are pretty darn good. Anyway wot stops The Fuzz tracing the mail???

SpecTBK=D

phase_dancer
28-08-2005, 05:48
No- They would only need residue in the bag'

Not necessarily. If there was a previously unseen drug present, perhaps a new and exotic tryptamine, or if the drug was extremely potent and unstable (like iso LSD), it may be that just crumbs or dust proves to be insufficient to state with any surity that a particular drug is present. Read my post on GC further up the page. Even the result of an ion scanner has to be confirmed by GC/MS if it's to be presented in court. Legally speaking, at present GC/MS has the final word.


the machines they use are pretty darn good. Anyway wot stops The Fuzz tracing the mail???

Well, if they can't find people who send fake powders in the mail as scare tactics, I doubt very much they will trace a letter with a pill in it. Unless of course you put a sender address on the back ;)

Cheshire Cat ^..^
28-08-2005, 09:12
Originally posted by Special-T.B.K
but in the USA Im gathering pills are a hell of alot cheaper. Much like the UK!
According to DEA the price for pills in US is about the same as in here.

ld50 vs ssri
29-08-2005, 12:23
I would gladly spend a weeks paycheck on pills to send them away for analysis for curiosity reasons.

Cyberdyne
29-08-2005, 15:41
Originally posted by Special-T.B.K
I can see ppl doing it- but in the USA Im gathering pills are a hell of alot cheaper. Much like the UK!

No- They would only need residue in the bag'

the machines they use are pretty darn good. Anyway wot stops The Fuzz tracing the mail???

SpecTBK=D

While almost all substances can be identified with residue there are several other factors to consider -

First, the quantity of a given drug in the pill - a pill which has tested for ketamine does not ring out as particularly dangerous. A pill that has tested for 250 mg of ketamine is potentially extremely dangerous

Second, pills, particularly compound represses are perfectly capable of containing uneven distribution of substances - even tiny quantity's of a totally unresearched substance (or perhaps one known to cause adverse reactions) may not be desirable for every user.

Finally, (and this really is irrefutable) if pills are being sent for a detailed analysis from a laboratory, then surely the most important control variable in the entire procedure is ensuring that the pill is in fact the pill believed to be the subject of the test. I mean, realisitically, are they going to ask user's to send in a description of the pill with the sample? Can you imagine the incredible unreliability of the system, and the blatant fradulent send in's that would occur? Once a pill with 175 mg's of mdma was identified there would be about another 25 pills all found to contain precisely 175 mg's of mdma...How eerie.

No, the sad reality of the situation is that whole pills will be required to hav their exact specfications and descriptions recorded WITH the test result and it can never be any other way.

This genuinely DOES raise really, really major problems because when I thought about it, Im a BIG advocate of harm reduction - I will talk shit to my friends all day long about, I will even spout off to randoms about why they should be taking 5-htp, im active on as many forums as i am aware exist. There is absolutely no way in HELL that I would send in a bik. Even if my income went up pretty considerably I wouldn't unless I was starting to get some pretty decent money. While even worse for price over here I'm of the understanding that its pretty bloody pricey in Aus. too, and the inescapable logic is if I wouldn't do it, there are few people who would

The only "viable" alternative that I can actually think of is having some pretty decent sponsorship for the testing itself - wouldn't government funding be grand. Then, *gulp*, dare I even say it for risk of sounding like the most deluded idiot ever...police confiscated supplies?>

O COME ON ITS POSSIBLE!

katmeow
29-08-2005, 15:46
^^^ Or perhaps if you are going out on a night with a a number of friends, you could all chip in a few bucks to buy an extra pill for the purposes of donation.

(Just make sure no-one eats it ;) )

Cheshire Cat ^..^
30-08-2005, 09:50
Originally posted by Cyberdyne
There is absolutely no way in HELL that I would send in a bik.
Shame. Talking and writing is nice and everything. But actually sacrificing for the goal is something else.

Anyway, there's a good point. The government won't release detailed specs of every pill. Only the most dangerous ones. But don't they do it already in some countries with confiscated pills? I bet our government already has a full arsenal of every pill on the market and just doesn't want to release any info except an occasional vague press release.

fcuking_in_heaven
31-08-2005, 04:32
I was under the impression that all pills confiscated by the police had to be GC/MS tested to make sure that the active ingredient was a blacklisted chemical.

phase_dancer
31-08-2005, 04:54
I was under the impression that all pills confiscated by the police had to be GC/MS tested to make sure that the active ingredient was a blacklisted chemical.

Yes, if they intend to charge someone with an offence GC/MS is generally the accepted form of analysis used in court. Presumptive or reagent tests are used in some countries by police when they make a bust. If the chemical produces a positive reaction by a kit, then 'off you go to jail' while the substance goes to the lab for further testing.

As I mentioned before, some drugs/chemicals can react in, or be altered by, the conditions of the gas chromatograph, as a typical run involves heat and mixing with gases under pressure (the 2 reactive gases are Hydrogen, Oxygen from air). In these cases, the chemicals may be tested using HPLC or a similar method instead.

Cowboy Mac
31-08-2005, 05:03
Originally posted by Cheshire Cat ^..^
I bet our government already has a full arsenal of every pill on the market and just doesn't want to release any info except an occasional vague press release.
Government forensic departments only have information from seizures, this means there may be pills which are never seen and tested. If Enlighten tests at an event we usually end up with 25 types of individual pills which is an excellent sample of the population at that point in time.

Stuart
31-08-2005, 07:58
are we able to get them to release information on seized pills under the freedom of information act?
as they have no problem releasing information on green Mitzi's to the press..

phase_dancer
31-08-2005, 08:17
are we able to get them to release information on seized pills under the freedom of information act?

No. Police intelligence is just that. While it may be arguable that such information is within the public's interest, police will normally always maintain a right to withhold such information.

As an example: Say police release a report saying tablet X has ingredients Y & Z and was tested from a batch located in Perth. While that may be of considerable advantage to users, and from a deterrent viewpoint even dissuade users from wanting to take tablet X, it may also seriously undermine efforts to catch crime groups associated with the Perth crims caught with the tablets. The interstate associates would effectively be tipped off and likely go into hiding or at least be clean when police arrived at their door.

It's only been in the past 12 months or so that interstate police have been talking of sharing such information between themselves. How far this has come I don't know, but one thing is for sure IMO, police are not going to willingly compromise their advantage for the sake of a few pill heads getting a better (or less worse ) product.

However, perhaps, when medical personnel yell loud enough on a specific issue e.g. green mitzis resulting in unusually high rates of hospital admissions, then they may be compelled (or forced) to release such limited information. But you can be sure of one thing, such info is intended to discourage use. From what I've seen over the past few years, it's rarely if ever a case of caring on behalf of the police - excluding some individuals in related departments - but rather to serve as a bolstered means for authorities to convey just how bad drugs are girls and boys....8)

Cheshire Cat ^..^
31-08-2005, 12:50
Originally posted by Cowboy Mac
Government forensic departments only have information from seizures, this means there may be pills which are never seen and tested.
What I meant is that they probably have almost all the pills on the street from seizures. If not from big busts then from unlucky street dealers.

Is this scenario possible? If we campaign for it, can the government decide to start releasing GC/MS information on all the seizured pills? It wouldn't cost them anything, would it?

Stuart
31-08-2005, 13:05
the cost would be in the public eye thinking they are going soft on 'hard drugs' :(

phase_dancer
31-08-2005, 13:13
Is this scenario possible? If we campaign for it, can the government decide to start releasing GC/MS information on all the seizured pills? It wouldn't cost them anything, would it?

Hello! Try reading the preceding posts 8(

The "campaign" never stops. If you really want to do something for the cause, try writing to your local member

Cheshire Cat ^..^
31-08-2005, 18:57
I mean campaigning more.

And, yes, I've read about the "advertisement" problem. But I don't understand how's that a problem for the government at all.