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The week after.... whats the deal with that?

B

Boffin

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 11, 2003
Messages
7
Hey people here is a bit of back ground info.

Im now 23, i started taking pills when i was 16.

From the ages of 16 till 19 i only consumed around 6 pills every month. Between the ages of 19 and 21 i would do at least 12 a month.

Everytime after going out on the weekend and getting trashed, i would feel fine on Monday, after having a sleep. I was able to eat fine, never had any depression etc.

Now i don't do it at all, only because i get way to many after effects

An example would be, the last time i went out and had pills was around 3 months ago.

That weekend i had

4 pills

The week after having all of this, i felt like crap... the same way i have been feeling over the past 14 months.... but this was the last time!.

On monday i would be " ok " , when tuesday came i was not able to eat as the thought of food made me sick. I had this really bad taste in my mouth, i can't explain what it's like... but it gets worse after i tried to eat something, and even after brushing my teeth. From tues through till friday i would spend the whole day sleeping and havin really bizzare dreams, i would not want to get out of bed because i just had no nrg and the moment i wake up i would just wanna go back to sleep.

Would you guys be able to explain why this happens to me.... i really enjoy having pills every now and then.... but at the moment i just can't i don't think it's worth it.... maybe i should just stop ?? and why was it a few years ago i did not have these symptoms.

The worse part is that seedy taste in my mouth....it lasts all week ?? is there anything i could do to stop this.


Sorry for the long messege, thanks for reading.. and you advice would be appreciated alot!

Cheers
 
Your asking a rather difficult question here. Chemicals react differently in each indvidual. Most defiently a comedown should be expected. It really would depend on the chemicals taken and the body/minds reaction and recovery to those chemicals.

Remember, Ecstasy is draining seretonin levels which often causes those terrible tuesday and that down/depressed feeling. I also notice that I have a horrible after tastes after taking E. It's a taste that doesnt seem to disappear for 1 or 2 days atleast and is noticable when eating.

On the other hand, when I take a drug like ice for instance, I notice that I often wake up with my heart racing and sometimes find myself having small panic attacks.

Others would say they have different or no reaction.

However the amount you are ingesting is reasonably high considering over the period of time you have been taken it. Slow down a little.

The more you use, the more I think you will find the comedowns progress to get worse.

Good Luck!
Shal...
 
Boffin said:


From the ages of 16 till 19 i only consumed around 6 pills every month. Between the ages of 19 and 21 i would do at least 12 a month.
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^^^ There's your answer..... seriously
 
If you battle through the "loss of magic" period, and keep partying (many do), you kind of forget what the initial "magic" felt like. Every time you have a pill, the comedown will become a sort of an expected thing. Just like waking up in the morning for work and going to work in general can be a bit of a pain, the pain is just a bit worse if you've partied hard over the weekend. But just like you get used to your weekly routine without drugs on the weekend, you get used to dealing with it after not sleeping a night on the weekend and having pills, meth etc.

Slight day time panic attacks may take a while to get used to, but if you have a strong mind, innate motivation and keep failry healthy otherwise (eg. gym, good food), nothing can stop you from having a good time.

I in now way encourage doing drugs every weekend, and I myself try leave at least 3-4 weeks most of the time before pills (meth is a different story), but I have found that comedowns and the week after is a lot more painful when your body has got out of the "party-on-the-weekend" rhythm. It might also be a relative thing. If you have not done drugs at all for a month and felt refreshed etc. a week after a weekend on drugs will seem 10x worse than a week after weekend on drugs where you've been partying every weekend for a few months.
 
I've noticed my comdowns are getting worse i used ot been fine but aftre 4 months of not pilling then piling again i think my binge drug use at the begining of the year is taking its toll on me.

I get flooded wiht insecurites about how freinds are realy not freinds ect and all i want to do is sleep. I've found that a good way to get out of this rut is to let your freinds know that you are having diffculties functioning normally and get them to help you by dragging you out of the house so that you don't sleep continuously.

I know that its reallt alot more difficult then it sounds to function noramlly and i still have heaps of troubles but talk to your freinds and they will try and help you.

Also i have found taking 5htp for the few weeks followign helps me abit.
 
I too think its a routine thing dude. I usually put 2-3 weeks between taking drugs, thats just because I like to give my body a bit of a rest between digs. I went to a big bush party in country Victoria a few weeks ago and went fairly hard all weekend (by my standards anyway), I had acid on the saturday, followed by 3 pills and half gram of speed sat night/sunday morning. Usually on the weekends on which i take drugs i would take 2 pills and a little bit of speed. For the week after this party I felt totally shithouse, couldn't eat for 3-4 days, had the depressed feelings, had bad case of 'the shakes' which doesn't make work easy when your a waiter! Basically worst comedown i've ever had. I put it down to taking more than what I'm used to.
So yeah basically in my opinion its a routine thing. If you get back into the swing of things then you will get used to the comedowns and get used to dealing with it.

Beech out
 
The thread title sound like a Seinfeld routine.
Anyway, carry on =D

btw is Runner2 the same person as runner?
 
Thats alot for the advice and input, i really appreciate it!

Makes me feel better after reading your comments because i know im not the only one goin through this.

I want the " magic " to come back.

I never plan now or in the future to go back to my old ways...

If anything i would only go and get trashed no more then once a month.

Thanks Again!

Boffin.

PS: Don't let this thread stop... if anyone had any more information to share that would be great!
 
I think someone's already mentioned this Boffin, but you might want to do some research on pre- and post-loading. There's a good presentation on Enlighten's site about it: you can find a link to it here . I personally find that a combination of alpha-lipoic acid, Vitamin C, magnesium and 5-htp sees me feeling increased positive effects and reduced negatives (e.g. clenching, comedown). It's different for everyone though, and if you're taking LOTS of pills, it might not offer you much protection against negative effects. Moderation is always a plus.
 
btw is Runner2 the same person as runner?
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8( God, don't let him see you asking that ;)


Frequency and Amount, Quality and Everything Else

Assuming the later 2 are Optimum [?] it comes down to how often, but more importantly IMO how much is consumed in one session, binge, night out, weekend, whatever. Once your health and wellbeing are back to normal you might try changing to this philosophy. It certainly helps to minimise both short term recovery, and long term damage.


Having a good break is the first thing. I find the longer the break, the easier it is for me to not feel compelled to have it. Learning to socialise and go out without being amped or loved up is the key. For some people this may seem like the hardest part - no energy, or nothing to look forward to perhaps - but if you make the effort to get there, it's usually easy to have fun. And anticipating an event or being excited about going, will pump up your dopamine, serotonin and NE levels on its own.

If and when you decide to roll again, try starting with much less than you'd normally have. Try to look for a subtle buzz rather than being totally chopped. It takes a bit of adjusting to, but like many on this board have found, a little is a lot with MDMA. Less than 150mg over 8-12 hours then ends up being a fantastic night out, with minimal consequences over the following week. Doing 2 or 3 strong pills in a space of 4-5 hours, particularly if double dropping, results in marked differences in post E burn out and recovery time, than 1-1 &1/2 over the same period.


As to why you seemed to be able to go for years without feeling so drained afterwards; It has to do with many things, including the "everything else" bit above. Even assuming your lifestyle was exemplary in-between rolling and that you minimised dehydration etc when partying; the body will respond naturally to the continual use (or using again before complete recovery from last time) by producing more enzymes and prioritising metabolism to rid, as quickly as possible, the chemical/s responsible for altering normal function. As this initially occurs, the drug is metabolised at a faster rate and tolerance can be partly attributed to this. As use further progresses, the body's prioritising often compromises other important body functions including detoxification, and elimination rates of these toxins. These may be normal body waste, or products from exposure to environmental/ lifestyle toxins which your body normally deals with easily, without you even being aware of it.

As use further progresses and dosages are increased, organs like the kidneys and liver can have a harder time processing and eliminating MDMA metabolites. Supplemental dosing over a period increases this. The vascular constricting properties of amphetamines restrict blood flow and therefore affects performance of the organs. Enzyme production may begin to fall because priority may shift as the immune system increases it's response to the constant invaders (drug or persistent metabolites) The body then looks for other ways in which to process the chemicals. Some of these will be more toxic to the body as they are not first choice routes, normally (when able) chosen as that which requires least energy (kinetics). Obviously, a more toxic product from the alternative route would not be expected to be more energy conserving, which also implies higher consequences for anywhere the molecule goes and particularly where it may reside for a time.

A strange analogy could be to say it's like taking the long way round a road-paved fancy neighborhood in a dodgy car with a smoky exhaust and a leaky sump. Stains may remain - worse if you stop, and the smoke trail affects all it contacts. In short, your presence will be felt.

The other, most important change which occurs when drugs are used for extended periods involves the receptors themselves. While some may be damaged, and replaced slowly (serotonin = 5HT) others actually disappear when the drug is present. This occurs normally even if its your first time with that drug, but repeated use invokes a memory effect. The outer membrane of the cell (axon terminal) is a fatty bilayer embedded with various receptor types. In the event of over stimulation, the cellular wall around the receptors caves in leaving a pit. Looking initially like an upside down Omega sign, the receptors then begin to sink deeper into the membrane surface, while the top surface slowly closes the gap, thereby insulating the receptors from binding with the drug or endogen.

Problem with this is that when the drug is ceased, the natural chemicals the body communicates with (neurotransmitters and other endogens) have also not been able to bind, and so many functions can be compromised. This has profound effects on many processes, even on the production of ATP as several co-factors (needed for enzymes to work) are prioritised for metabolism or repair of receptors, manufacture of other enzymes, mRNA etc. Many of these require vitamins, minerals and sugars to regenerate. It can begin a semi-perpetual cycle of low energy, remaining while the active metabolites remain and longer, as although some receptors re-emerge after this internalisation, many are broken apart by enzymes and recycled to build new receptors.


As can be appreciated, several body insufficiencies can add to produce a very weary burn out period. None of these conditions may have existed when you first took E, but have gradually manifested over your long regular use period. After long term use you may also be suffering mineral and vitamin deficiencies. Keep your fruit sugars up, and try to get lots of fresh air. To help the recovery process you might try doing an hour of stretching exercises each day. Your body will eliminate quicker and your chi (life force) will make a gradual but noticeable return.

Regulation of the surface expression of 5-HT2A receptors

The lab also studies how 5-HT2A receptor surface expression is regulated. Studies performed in the 1980's1 predicted that opiate and b-adrenergic receptors were internalized via coated pits into endosomes as detailed below (for review see 2). More recent studies from many labs have suggested that internalization via coated pits and endosomes is a general mechanism for GPRC internalization and may play roles in a number of other cellular processes (for review see Neuron 23: 629-631 (1999) What's all the RAVE about receptor internalization? B. L. Roth & D. L. Willins).
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From: Rothlab homepage


regula1.gif


From Rhodium; (little wonder he is cheif bee) ;)

Trip Tolerance: Neurons Swallowing own Receptors
(Rated as: excellent)

When you first ingest a psychedelic drug, you soon discover that you develop tolerance to its effects very quickly, a single dose of a tryptamine or phenethylamine can block almost all the effects of any psychedelic for a day or two, as well as attenuating the effect of any taken within 1-2 weeks. Why is that? Why is it so effective? Was D.A.R.E. right after all, and you really did etch away the braincells with that Acid blotter? Nope, not by far - read on...

The effects of the "classical hallucinogens" (largely the Phenethylamines and the Tryptamines) are all chiefly mediated by them binding to and activating the 5-HT2A receptor (they are 5-HT2A agonists), which is a member of the neurotransmitter receptors in the body and brain which binds Serotonin (or 5-HT, from its chemical name 5-Hydroxy-Tryptamine). This receptor is very easily deactivated, probably because it is not used to a large extent (to the best of my knowledge) during everyday brain-activity, something that for simplicitys sake can be verified by the fact that you usually never get religious experiences while standing in line in the store, nor are the clouds constantly on the morph.

When the 5-HT2A receptor becomes more stimulated than it is used to (as in you ingesting ANY active amount of a psychedelic drug), the neurons on the recieving end of the synapse responds to this with "receptor internalization", the nerve cell actually drawing the receptor into the cell membrane, so that all its contact with the surface is lost.

You can draw an analogy with the eyes of a snail - when its eye is poked or otherwise disturbed, it almost instantly retracts the telescopic eye and turns the eye tube inside out, so that it becomes buried inside the head, safe from eye-poking scientists. In the same way the serotonin neurons become stressed by being poked with 5-HT2A agonists and retracts its receptors so that any further poking does not lead to the activation of the receptor, which would otherwise force the neuron to fire repeatedly, sending away an electrical pulse of a few tens of millivolts - it doesn't sound like much, but for a cell which may have a diameter of only 0.05-0.1 millimeter (that's 1/2500 to 1/5000 of an inch), that is hard work. If you had to make 20 push-ups every time the phone rang, you would also soon disconnect the phone if you got a series of prank calls (which is very close to what serotonin neurons would consider 5-HT2A agonist drugs to be). They are small, but very clever - after all, they are brain cells by profession.

When the receptors internalized, the nerve cell cannot become activated by any 5-HT2A agonists, regardless of how much of it you ingest - the drug cannot reach, and thus not activate the receptor. That you still feel something even if you would take a trip every day for a week is because not 100% of the receptors are internalized, and that most drugs affect a whole range of other receptors, but to a lesser extent. There are also a few other mechanisms contributing to the development of tolerance to psychedelics, but this is by far the most important one, and the most fantastic of them all. A short period after the drug has left the body, the 5-HT2A receptors either return to the surface, or if the repair machinery in the neuron determines that any of them were damaged, they are broken down to their constituents again and are thus salvaged for spare parts, so that new 5-HT2A receptors can be built and re-installed, allowing the serotonergic neuron to return to exactly the same pristine state it was before the weekend.

To study this more in-depth, I have linked a few articles of interest below - most (if not all?) of them should be free to download, otherwise just tell me, and I'll upload them to my page.

Further Reading on 5-HT2A Desensitization:

Mechanisms of Ligand-Induced Desensitization of the 5-HT2A Receptor
J. Pharm. Exp. Ther. Vol. 300, Issue 2, 468-477, February 2002 (http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/300/2/468)

Differences in Rapid Desensitization of 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C
J. Pharm. Exp. Ther. Vol. 299, Issue 2, 593-602, November 2001 (http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/299/2/593)

Dynamin-dependent, Arrestin-independent Internalization of 5-Hydroxytryptamine 2A (5-HT2A) Serotonin Receptors
J Biol Chem. 2001 Mar 16;276(11):8269-77 (http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/276/11/8269)

The Interaction of a Constitutively Active Arrestin with the Arrestin-Insensitive 5-HT2A Receptor Induces Agonist-Independent Internalization
Mol. Pharmacol., May 1, 2003; 63(5): 961-972. (http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/63/5/961)

Cell-Type Specific Effects of Endocytosis Inhibitors on 5-HT2A Receptor Desensitization and Resensitization
Mol. Pharmacol., Vol. 60, Issue 5, 1020-1030, November 2001 (http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/60/5/1020)

Receptor Internalization Process
Source: Roth Lab: Functional Studies of 5-HT Receptors (http://kidb.cwru.edu/rothlab/regulation.htm)
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Thanks again to Rhodium
 
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btw is Runner2 the same person as runner?
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Yes, and not very happy about it :\


p_d: great work. To tell the truth, I've always vaguely knew what was said above but now that its been neatly layed out, I know exactly why I love so much the first few thick tokes of good meth, and why smoking it later on never gives an effect even close to what its like when you are straight and you get on it.
 
Nice work (as always) phase_dancer :)

Boffin, I think you'll find the only way to get rid of side effects is simply to phase out what's causing them... I'd recommend a break for a while, and less frequent intake :)
 
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