Current theories on neurotoxicity and other "damage"...

I realize there are a thousand threads on this subject here. However, it seems there are some new studies pointing to permanent genetic "damage" from MDMA use as well as Neurotoxicity. For those of you that have had the advantage of studying this subject for awhile, I would like to get your opinions in this one thread on the long term Hippocampal damage of ecstacy use as well as your opinions as to whether or not this is a transient effect or long term. Finally, knowing what you know now, how damaging do you think MDMA is in relation to the pantheon of rec drugs (including alcohol)? Thanks for any response. If this post is somehow not acceptable, by all means, delete it.


BTW, this is my first post here. It looks like a good place to learn. This is not my main area of expertise, and I have been to another board or two, but have been dismayed by the rigid administration of those boards as well as it seeming to me that politics were more important than information. Doesn't seem that way here. Sorry to ramble..

mdma use/abuse effects and adjusts brain chemistry. frequent Overuse can result in depleted reward chemicals (namely serotonin). Serotonin controls appetite mood and sleep-routine & is stored at the back of the brain at the top of spine. There is sketchy evidence to suggest that mdma abuse can have a knock-on effect on spinal fluids which overtime can ultimately result in curvature of the spine etc. Recent studies also prove that depleted serotonin can knock the bodies biological-clock out of sink.

As the brain 'stores' serotonin it is possible and advisable to replace depleted stores. serotonin consists of 5-Htp and vit B. Only 5-htp can cross from the blood-steam to the brain. The brain is generally rich in Vit B, so 5-htp taken orally is the best way to re-balance brain chemistry.

riped, the supposed study you are referring to is being discussed in "drugs in the media"

as for your other question, there are so many drugs to discuss, you would kinda have to limit it to a few to begin the discussion.

I will say alcohol is terrible. But I am an alcoholic, so for me it is. To someone who can use it responsibly, it is perfectly safe.

"permanent genetic "damage" from MDMA"

does this mean if i have kids in the future they will be f#%ked up? cause i don't mind harming myself, but i can't do that

Well, I am aware of the mechanisms through which MDMA works. However, there seem to be so many conflicting studies, or research making assumptions based upon sketchy or shoddy methodology.

There is a new study that suggests permanent genetic damage with MDMA use, but keep in mind they say the same holds true for cocaine. I am very skeptical of the claims made against MDMA simply because the same often holds true for a number of legal drugs, food, or supplements. It is in vogue to demonize MDMA right now, and they are using scare tactics.

What I am most interested in hearing is those who have read and understand most of the controversial studies that I am referring to, and whether or not they feel that MDMA warnings are warranted, and in terms of "damage"where they feel MDMA fits it with all rec drugs.

There is no evidence that either MDMA or cocaine cause genetic mutations. Nor are either of them carcinogens. Either of these problems would be simple to determine in a laboratory. And with all of the research focused on these two drugs, if they caused these problems it would be heavily documented.

The report that you are talking about only appeared as a press release. It never appeared in a scientific journal (i.e., no peer review, no scientific collaborators, no data or methods used to reproduce the experiments, no methods documentation to determine if it was proper research or not, etc.).

The report is false science. Here a thread specific to it:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110426&r=12

^^^
Brian Oblivion is absolutely correct...MDMA nor Cocaine causes genetic defects....it may cause nerve damage due to toxicity (theoretically) but that's not proven yet.

There has to be a study to back that up. It most likely has not been released to a journal. At that point, a pubmed inquiry should find it. I am interested in seeing what that studies methods were.... I guess we will have to wait.

RIPPED,

The problem is that scientific studies do not work that way. People do not first release results to something like Reuters or AP. They first release their findings to scientific journals, then it goes through various peer reviews. After that, once it has been established, it is then released to the general public.

The Italian government is starting its own "anti-drug" war (see: Italian Authorities Adopt Neo-Fascist Laws Against Drug Users). This study is fueled by political motives, not by anything scientific.

Again, there have already been studies to determine if these compounds are carcinogenic. That is one of the first things that are does in drug research. If either of these drugs caused cancer or were genetic mutatigens everyone would know about it.

Something else to consider is that cocaine has been used since the time of Sigmund Freud, and MDMA has been in popular use for about 15 years. Both long enough that there should be evidence of it in the population. Where are all of the defective babies? If it effected learning (as with lead) then there would be a body of evidence in the population. If it created actual birth defects, these would be increasing a great deal and would be obvious in the public health surveillance studies.

But, there's nothing! No correlative statistics, no increase in birth defects, learning defects, no increase in cancer rates in these groups, etc. These are the kinds of things that public health services study and look for (e.g., the Centers for Disease Control, the World Health Organization, Health Canada, etc.). The data is there, the genetic mutations or cancer increase in these groups are not.

This Italian study is pure bunk fueled by the same political goals as was the rumor that LSD caused birth defects. It was released to scare people.

This guy is an Italian equivalent of Ricaurte.

I just thought I'd add...I don't know of an illicit recreational drug that can effect the DNA as to change your genetics for future generations.

I don't understand how they can make a claim like this with no study at all to back it up. There must be something somewhere. I am not disputing that it is most likely "bunk" but I would like to see the study. I am also aware of the research process, but it is not uncommon for "findings" of a study to be released to the media before it hits a publication. I am interested in how the came up with cocaine AND ecstacy!

RIPPED1 said:

I don't understand how they can make a claim like this with no study at all to back it up.

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You must be new.
There are many powerful people who do not want you to do drugs and have a good time, and they will do anything and everything to be sure you don't. I think a few of em actually do think it is for your own good, but fuck em. I decide what is for my own good.

I absolutely understand the demonization of ecstasy, which is why I am trying to cut through to get other opinions. This definitely is not my primary area of expertise, but I am somewhat of an expert in pharmacology as it relates to anabolics, and other areas of physical pharmacology. The point I was trying to make is that to come out with a "study" and report it in the news first, before it comes out in a journal is par for the course when it comes to illicit substances. It is irresponsible for so called "researchers" to release supposed study results without the study, but there has to be a study somewhere that just has not been published yet.

That being said, it is important for us to have this information not only for ourselves to review and discredit, but also to discredit to those who take that information as the full truth.

Check out the book by Julie Holland MD "Ecstasy: the complete guide" for a good discussion on theories of neurotoxicity by people who really know what they are talking about. :D

Unfortunately, that book is somewhat outdated. But I agree, it is good from what I have seen of it.

Very good posts Brian..Great to see someone speaking the truth about these government funded and supported "studies"..Shoddy work is done in all areas of science, and obviously, this phenom is not localized in one specific area of the world...Money and power can amazingly "change" some of the ideas and thoughts of groundbreaking and fresh new science..

^^^
Thanks Orpheus

It is really sad that there are scientists today who are willing to disregard the truth for financial and/or political gains.

I was driving in San Francisco one day (I was there on Business) and I heard a "Public Service Announcement" on the radio. It was Dr Drew Pinsky (loveline) and he kept repeating "Ecstasy use WILL damage your brain..." I thought how extremely irresponsible that was for him to say, given the conflicting studies. Also, he was helping the public to buy into some very real negative sterotyping of X by using scare tactics. I think that is pretty deplorable of him...

"It is really sad that there are scientists today who are willing to disregard the truth for financial and/or political gains."

Dude, if I told you a quarter of the stories I've researched for "bad science" relating to Forensic Archaeology(and other forensic fields), you'd be shocked..then again, maybe you wouldn't .. but still, the amount of tampered, placed, and destroyed evidence in some of these cases out there is crazy man..Even in the fields of science relating to justice, selfish and ignorant motives can still prevail..Innocent fucking people doing 15, 20, 30 years of hard time before being set free when DNA testing or actual science is used to find their innocence...If people don't think cops quickly stereotype people or really WANT to convict a particular person and will do what they can to see this, they're completely wrong..

^^^
I'm not surprised at all. Heck, we invaded a whole country based solely on pumped up forensic evidence.

...Dr Drew Pinsky (loveline) and he kept repeating...

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I'm waiting for someone to announce that we have gone from the age of reason into the age of the bandwagon.

If these people were scientists back during the time of Copernicus, they would be drafting "evidence" which proves that the sun orbits around the earth.