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Your preferred interpretation of modern physics

ebola?

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If you're like me, you find the implications of the findings of modern physics for metaphysics intriguing (though I lack the knowledge necessary to hold that much confidence in my personal views). So what is your preferred epistemological and ontological framework for describing (explaining?) the meaning of physical dynamics (be they relativistic, quantum mechanical, M-theoretical, or otherwise)? Do you think that physics has anything to say about what metaphysics we should hold (or vice versa)? Do you think that it doesn't? Why not, then?

eg, do you think that deepak chopra is onto something or full of shit? Why or why not? :P

ebola
 
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I'm not particularly fond of the theories you mentioned, they're all far too steeped in mathematics and not tied back to reality sufficiently, in my opinion (I know plenty of people would disagree with this). I do think physics has something to say in regards to metaphysics, but I think it's difficult to extract it because the current materialistic paradigm of the 20th/21st century makes it problematic; it has got the blinders on a lot of people and got people looking the wrong way, IMO.

Really physics shouldn't be guiding people in a certain direction. What it should be doing is inspiring people to the mystery, to question the mystery. It should show you where we are, admit what we don't know for sure, and then get you to begin asking questions. But physics isn't set up to do that. It has this paradigm that has got people stuck in a certain way of thinking. For example, most people assume the Big Bang theory to be truth, it is widely accepted and many experts believe it, it's in all the educational books. But what if it isn't true? Have you really contemplated that possibility? I don't think many people really do.

I don't know enough about deepak chopra. He may be well intentioned, but on first pass it seems like he's just selling something.
 
My quantum field theory professor (Predrag Cvitanovic) wrote a book about this most modern theory of how the world works; it starts like this: what are long-leggedy beasties?

Of course if you read that and it seemed a bit weird, fear not. The second chapter is more revealing. Devoid of any information about the physics of our Universe, chapter 2 nonetheless contains everything we might need in order to understand how modern physics is organized. When you get to the series at the top of page 11, you're probably wondering what the hell we're all smoking. Nonetheless, this formulation is right, and it's been verified by every experiment humans have been able to perform. Particles appear or disappear whenever they like; they're combined into reality by the Feynman rules (Lagrangian).

So let's go back to the beginning. In the beginning, there was Fermat's principle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat's_principle

This describes how light moves. We can imagine little "pieces" of light that fly around, governed by Fermat's principle. This imagination is wrong -- that's not how quantization works -- but it is illustrative. It turns out classical mechanics, which is governed by Newton's laws, can be mathematically turned into Hamilton's principle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton's_principle

This is actually the same as Fermat's principle, but instead of an index of refraction we have a potential energy. That is: the potential energy affecting particle in space is like the index of refraction affecting photon going through a lens. As the particle moves into a region of higher potential, some of its kinetic energy becomes potential energy, and it slows down. As the light moves into thick glass, it is refracted more strongly, and it too slows down.

So physicists realized that both light and matter are really governed by the same rules. Maxwell, Planck, and Einstein together developed the modern postulate that a photon of light is really a quantized (integer) excitation of the electromagnetic field. Since light behaves identically (Fermat-Hamilton principle) to matter, it isn't a huge cognitive leap to say, perhaps, an electron is an excitation of the "electron field", and as we derive a wave equation for light we can also do so for the electron, or any other type of "particle" which is treated as an excitation of a corresponding "particle field".

This wave equation is the Klein-Gordon equation, which governs the world. Unfortunately, the Klein-Gordon equation relates the square of energy to the square of momentum. Since math is commutative, though, a^2 + b^2 ≠ (a + b)^2. When I take (a + b)^2, I have a^2 + ab + ba + b^2, and since math is commutative, this is a^2 + 2ab + b^2, which is not a^2 + b^2. A really smart guy named Paul Dirac said "what if we just decided math was anticommutative?", i.e. ab = -ba? Then we get (a + b)^2 = a^2 + ab + ba + b^2 = a^2 + ab - ab + b^2 = a^2 + b^2, and we can relate energy to momentum directly. This anticommutative math is called a Clifford algebra, it is computed using matrices called Dirac matrices, and it is the reason for all of the trouble in the world. All strange phenomena, like antimatter, and M-theory, are the fault of this Clifford algebra, which leads to more shit than a giant red dog.

But all the strings and so forth are just math's problem. Our problem is this: if there's an "atara" field, it could have an excitation wherever it wants, but atara is sitting on the bed in only one place. Furthermore, atara's phone is also on the bed in one place. We solve this by not solving it: physics doesn't describe how anything relates to itself, i.e. my experience of myself as here is just the way consciousness is, not physics. But I know that I'm entangled with the phone in that "me on the bed" corresponds to "phone on the bed", and that is part of the physics: the things I experience in my reality are just those things which are entangled with me. The only time I go away from the QFT is when I choose where and what I am, which leads to the relational interpretation of quantum mechanics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_quantum_mechanics

So measurement just means that the measuring device is now entangled with the system. We can't view the world outside ourselves: we are always inside ourselves. If I open Schrödinger's box, I am now entangled with the cat. When I start, the cat is (|alive> + |dead>)/√2, and I am (|yay> + |boo>)/√2, so the system is (|alive> + |dead>) (x) (|yay> + |boo>), with the combinatorial factor excluded for convenience (it was wrong anyway). Me experiencing the cat is an operator: |alive><yay| + |dead><boo|, so now the combined atara-cat system looks like (|alive-yay> + |dead-boo>). Of course, something about me demands I only experience one thing at a time, so of course my experience is instead (|dead-boo>), because another strange unphysical phenomenon is that I always have bad luck.

Most of this essay is incomprehensible gibberish, but I'm in a hurry. Anywho, laters.
 
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I don't have a preferred interpretation of physics, because (even having a master degree in mathematics), I have no proper understanding of it. Hence, I will also not speculate about it. Doing this just is a lack of respect of the hard work physicists do every day.

On a related note, I think "theoretical physics" sometimes should better be kept private to an elite group. It really bothers me that "uneducated" people (i.e. don't know how to solve a second degree equation) start to have the wildest fantasies and speculations about the advanced theoretical physics and proclaim to understand the whole universe after watching a youtube movie.

==
Re: if you are interested in the question how contemporary physics should shape metaphysics: cf. http://www.amazon.com/Every-Thing-Must-Metaphysics-Naturalized/dp/0199573093
Every Thing Must Go aruges that the only kind of metaphysics that can contribute to objective knowledge is one based specifically on contemporary science as it really is, and not on philosophers' a priori intuitions, common sense, or simplifications of science. In addition to showing how recent metaphysics has drifted away from connection with all other serious scholarly inquiry as a result of not heeding this restriction, they demonstrate how to build a metaphysics compatible with current fundamental phsyics ("ontic structural realism"), which, when combined with their metaphysics of the special sciences ("rainforet realism"), can be used to unify physics with the other sciences without reducing these sciences to physics intself. Taking science metaphysically seriously, Ladyman and Ross argue, means that metaphysicians must abandon the picture of the world as composed of self-subsistent individual objects, and the paradigm of causation as the collision of such objects. Every Thing Must Go also assesses the role of information theory and complex systems theory in attempts to explain the relationship between the special sciences and physics, treading a middle road between the grand synthesis of thermodynamics and information, and eliminativism about information. The consequences of the author's metaphysical theory for central issues in the philosophy of science are explored, including the implications for the realism vs. empiricism debate, the role of causation in scientific explanations, the nature of causation and laws, the status of abstract and virtual objects, and the objective reality of natural kinds
 
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I don't see quantum physics as that much different from metaphysics, it's just trying to do it with scientific authority. What fascinates me the most about it is that eventually the two become so similar as to bridge the duality, which IMO is one of the main requirements to a greater understanding of awareness.

I frankly don't find theoretical physics to be that different from religion, and there are many material reductionists who agree with that. It's only useful insofar as what can be applied, otherwise it's just abstract.

I agree with SS... it should be used as an inspirational source but not relied upon for greater explanations. Turning inward can fulfill that.
 
I don't see quantum physics as that much different from metaphysics, it's just trying to do it with scientific authority.

Er...I don't think that this is in on the right level of parity to make sense. Quantum physics is a type of physical theory while metaphysics is a field containing types of ontological and epistemological theories. Quantum physics doesn't speak to metaphysics without interpretation, and multiple interpretations are possible, presenting many conflicting metaphysical implications.


I frankly don't find theoretical physics to be that different from religion, and there are many material reductionists who agree with that. It's only useful insofar as what can be applied, otherwise it's just abstract.

If we only care about what is useful and applicable, why should we care about metaphysics?

...

Heh, so I need to read a bunch of stuff before replying worth a damn.

ebola
 
Er...I don't think that this is in on the right level of parity to make sense. Quantum physics is a type of physical theory while metaphysics is a field containing types of ontological and epistemological theories. Quantum physics doesn't speak to metaphysics without interpretation, and multiple interpretations are possible, presenting many conflicting metaphysical implications.

Theoretical quantum physics is not that much different from theoretical cosmology. It paints a nice rosey picture of ways that everything can be tied together but it has no real practical way of demonstrating it to be true.

If we only care about what is useful and applicable, why should we care about metaphysics?

I'm not a material reductionist so I'm not purely about practical value. I was speaking within scientific terms. I would not personally draw on quantum physics in order to form metaphysical beliefs about the way the universe works.
 
Really physics shouldn't be guiding people in a certain direction. What it should be doing is inspiring people to the mystery, to question the mystery. It should show you where we are, admit what we don't know for sure, and then get you to begin asking questions. But physics isn't set up to do that. It has this paradigm that has got people stuck in a certain way of thinking. For example, most people assume the Big Bang theory to be truth, it is widely accepted and many experts believe it, it's in all the educational books. But what if it isn't true? Have you really contemplated that possibility? I don't think many people really do.

I think you are confusing physics and media coverage on certain theories. Scientists will be the first to admit that they don't know. They don't know the universe started with a big bang it's just all current evidence suggests it did, they have no idea what happens at the point of singularity or even how many dimensions there are. It inspires me to the mystery. If the big bang is true, how the fuck, what the fuck. With every question answered a load more can be asked. WTF happens in the centre of a black holes?

Well.. turns out the universes speeding expansion is now slowing down.. There's definitely a lot more to it that the mother of all points of singularity going bang. I've mentioned it many times before but I <3 this idea: http://evodevouniverse.com/wiki/Cosmological_natural_selection_(fecund_universes)

Agreed on deepak chopra.
 
ebola said:
It paints a nice rosey picture of ways that everything can be tied together but it has no real practical way of demonstrating it to be true.

Ah. I meant to imply that it doesn't paint a complete picture at all; to make physical theory into a "picture of the world", one must add interpretation dependent on metaphysical assertions. Otherwise, physical theory just fulfills an alternate intellectual function.

I'm not a material reductionist so I'm not purely about practical value. I was speaking within scientific terms. I would not personally draw on quantum physics in order to form metaphysical beliefs about the way the universe works.

Ah, but would you think it valid to construct a metaphysics contradictory with some findings of modern physics?

ebola
 
Ah, but would you think it valid to construct a metaphysics contradictory with some findings of modern physics?

Most human systems have some form of non-essential koolaid in them that I am happy to dispense with. Take what is good and leave the rest, etc.
 
Fair enough. Okay, what is 'wrong headed' in modern physical theory and cosmology that needs to be discarded to build a 'good' metaphysics?

ebola
 
Metaphysics is unreachable from the physical world.. we can never see it, smell it, taste it, feel it, hear it or measure or detect it..

It's impossible to build good metaphysics.
 
Fair enough. Okay, what is 'wrong headed' in modern physical theory and cosmology that needs to be discarded to build a 'good' metaphysics?

ebola

It's not so much that it is glaringly wrong, it's just that it sticks only to physical explanations where there is way more happening. It's not only possible but practical that metaphysical experiences can happen, be real, but beyond the purview of physics.

I think it has some practical insight though... like positing that that matter and energy is a false dichotomy, it's all just vibrations. Perhaps strings even. The potential for their to be multiple dimensions, universes, and holograms. That vibrations of the same frequency tend to attract one another; higher frequencies repel lower frequencies, etc.

Quantum entanglement always interested me because of what it could imply for consciousness.

I really believe that awareness is the missing link that ties all the general forces together.
 
Deepak Chopra is a scam man con artist dick.

He has developed glasses that have bright LEDs that pulse, and earphones that i assume play binaural beats or just simply meditation music. The effect is very much like the relaxed and focused effects one gets from meditation, biofeedback / neurofeedback, Hindu Kirtan, Gregorian chanting, Hebrew davening, Tibetan prayer bowls, Native American drum circles and rain chants, Sufi chants and Whirling dervishes, and African trance dancing.. They enhance your meditation, increase your motivation and intuition, relax and sleep better... they help you relax quickly as well as reach trance states for a variety of experiences, aid in lucid dreaming or bring your meditation practices to a whole new level! Behind your closed eyelids you will see a complex kaleidoscope of color, multidimensional layers of fractals and a variety of dream-like imagery.. and guess what? They're yours for only $299 but there's more.. you can download addition tracks (each just under an hour long) for another $10 each!

Seriously that's all the information there is on them.. from his site.. which literally looks like a "Want to know how to ALWAYS win on roulette?" Pop-ups that sometimes see do the rounds..

http://deepakchopradreamweaver.com/

Sorry.. just properly looked him up and it made me feel grr inside.
 
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ebola? said:
...to make physical theory into a "picture of the world", one must add interpretation dependent on metaphysical assertions.
Are you trying to claim authority here?
Is this a case of, "you do it all the time without realizing it?
Metaphysics is unreachable from the physical world.. we can never see it, smell it, taste it, feel it, hear it or measure or detect it..

It's impossible to build good metaphysics.
Metaphysics must have some sort of GOAL to measure by.
 
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I don't actually believe there is any metaphysical anything..

It's an abstract concept that doesn't apply to the real world.
 
I think you are confusing physics and media coverage on certain theories. Scientists will be the first to admit that they don't know. They don't know the universe started with a big bang it's just all current evidence suggests it did, they have no idea what happens at the point of singularity or even how many dimensions there are. It inspires me to the mystery. If the big bang is true, how the fuck, what the fuck. With every question answered a load more can be asked. WTF happens in the centre of a black holes?

Well.. turns out the universes speeding expansion is now slowing down.. There's definitely a lot more to it that the mother of all points of singularity going bang. I've mentioned it many times before but I <3 this idea: http://evodevouniverse.com/wiki/Cosmological_natural_selection_(fecund_universes)

Agreed on deepak chopra.

Sure. I know the actual scientists, assuming they maintain their integrity, will admit they don't know for sure what is really going on. My perceptions though are from those on the internet, daily life, the media.. I don't know any proper scientists personally.. and this 'community' has this kind of state of mind that wants to remain blind to new possibilities and acknowledging the fact that we don't know. I guess it's fear of the unknown/not being sure of your own foundations.

That theory is interesting.. I would probably like that or something pretty similar if I went back 10 years or so. Black holes fascinated me (and ball lightning), the stuff on the edge of science that has mystery to it. My beliefs on black holes changed though when I encountered plasma physics and its relation to stuff in space. Now I consider mainstream blackhole theory to be false, that there aren't singularities at all.. just energetic phenomena which we have yet to properly understand, and that the blackholes are the result of a false mathematical formula/equations. I'm not even sure about the universe expansion being correct either now. So if black holes aren't real, the universe isn't expanding/slowing down, and the big bang theory isn't correct.. then what actually is going on is far, far stranger. Now I have to acknowledge the possibility that matter is 'born' in these energetic events at the center of galaxies.

Regardless of what is correct, it is evident that when it comes down to it we know so very little about origins of the Universe/matter.
 
rick said:
Metaphysics is unreachable from the physical world.. we can never see it, smell it, taste it, feel it, hear it or measure or detect it..

This might not be in the sense of which we're speaking about "metaphysics" right now.

ebola
 
pmoseman said:
Are you trying to claim authority here?
Is this a case of, "you do it all the time without realizing it?

Not really either. Rather, it's too exhausting to put "IMO" after everything I type. :P

ebola
 
Psyduck said:
On a related note, I think "theoretical physics" sometimes should better be kept private to an elite group. It really bothers me that "uneducated" people (i.e. don't know how to solve a second degree equation) start to have the wildest fantasies and speculations about the advanced theoretical physics and proclaim to understand the whole universe after watching a youtube movie.

Yes, but isn't it worthwhile researchers in physics to consider the metaphysical implications of their research, so as to keep track of "what" they are explaining, exactly? And then can't some of them coherently and usefully present summaries of their positions to laypeople (I'm thinking of some particular books). So this provides a springboard for 'non elites' to think about these matters; we have way better resources than, say, "What the bleep do we know?"

Now let me dig up my copy of Everything most go. ;)

ebola
 
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