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Would you make the perfect sacrifice?

J

juniorcat

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Would you sacrifice yourself (your life and your soul) to eternal torture and torment, so that the rest of the universe (literally everyone and everything that isn't you or your soul) can ascend to heaven and bliss?

So, if you had the option of you, yourself moving into everlasting euphoria and beauty, and in turn the rest of humanity burns and suffers forever would you take it? Or, would you sacrifice your soul completely and utterly to hell? In which case everyone else could be happy and free forever.

This is all as if someone or something had given you this option of course. Yaknow hypothetically speaking...
 
i'd sacrifice my life for a single friend so this isn't too much of a leap. if my sacrifice guaranteed everybody else would be happy and free forever, it's a no brainer - of course i'd do it.

i've actually thought about this recently. the bible tells me that jesus sacrificed himself (his earthly self) to atone for the sins of man. now crucifixion is likely a pretty nasty way to die but he got a fastpass to heaven to sit at his father's side for all eternity. i'll be frank - that doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice to me...

alasdair
 
Certainly, been the son of creation aint to bad, but we can all feel that, now and then.

I'm talking more, fucking eternal hell fire (no break), so that everyone else can go to heaven and love and enjoi.

What then?

If, in turn, you could go to heaven and enjoi, and they would go to hell.
 
I feel the same, Alasdair... about Jesus's sacrifice not really being sacrifice. It never made sense to me (If in-fact I'm getting Christianity and the idea of a heaven-place after death where we go to reside).

I would in-fact trade my pain and suffering that I've experienced here for his experience. At least his was quick (relatively), where my predicament insures I'll live for some time, just deficient in quite a few things, a lot of the time, or suffering allergic reactions from the air I'm breathing. Yea.. I'd much rather be beaten and cut up and bones cracked and made fun of for an entire day, and then go to heaven, then come back renewed. Not sure if it's not all just symbolic though.

Anyway not the point I guess.


To answer the OP, I believe that full circle, I am everyone else, and they are me, so according to this, what you propose simply won't work. But... assuming somehow I'm wrong, no... I wouldn't sacrifice my life and soul for "everyone else". Not a fucking chance. I would however die for people.. if it simply meant me actually trading my literal life (not some other way of looking at my life, like God has done. meaning he's taken/taking my life away while leaving me alive to see it.) here... and "blacking out"... I don't think that that would be a bad deal... to ensure that at least someone, everyone else, gets to experience ecstasy and enlightenment. But I wouldn't endure everlasting torture, by choice. There'd have to be a stopping point for me to agree.

I think sometimes when religion speaks of "eternity", and big numbers like "I saw seven thousand"... I think they're being children. There's some seriousness to it, but there's some... not so serious. There's no way (? that i see that) anything that finds a reason to talk at all like this could see seven thousand of something and know that it's exactly seven thousand of something. Bible uses lots of big numbers like this. Eternity could mean a thousand years. Could mean a million...

My cut off is an actual number. If it's an actual number, I most likely would.. but an eternity... eeeeeeeeehhhhhhh.

I have a problem with the idea that this scenario would ever exist, though.

But in a way I guess I see how it could.


I'm bouncing around.


Sometimes I do feel that's the only way it does exist.

Maybe Jesus is really always on the cross, in torture, in some sense.



I guess if I knew for sure that what I'm enduring, If I knew at all times that it was providing light for people (like, I'm on fire and lighting the world, but of course, I'm in pain.)... if I knew, I would. Yea... But only if I knew for sure that I was a bad-ass on fire... if I was just in pain and confused/my awareness demented, I don't think I would be too happy with it. If I knew... possibly.. Jesus.. but an eternity? WTF is that? I simply don't feel it exists (I mean it does.. but...). At least not in any form applicable here. AHHHHHHHH.

(hard question)

I'd rather take turns being on fire.
 
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I doubt anyone would if the end result was eternal torture. No human could even really conceive what that would be like so IMO they can't really weigh it against anything of value. If you asked a question like would you sacrifice yourself for the good of another. Sure thing, i've always figured another could do more with life than I and would rather let them try anyways. Also the way people are thinking of the crucifixion is a bit off I would think atleast, why wouldn't Jesus already have a fast pass to heaven regardless of whether he gave his life for man? He was God's son, his sacrifice was to show his father that even though he had abandoned human kind, his son Jesus would not do the same, to prove this in an ultimate form he allowed humanity to not only kill him but torture him in the process, and afterwards still loved them the same as he had before and still believed they were destined to exist in heaven amongst God. Thats what I got from it atleast but I always thought of regular views as off.
 
alasdairm said:
i'd sacrifice my life for a single friend so this isn't too much of a leap. if my sacrifice guaranteed everybody else would be happy and free forever, it's a no brainer - of course i'd do it.

i've actually thought about this recently. the bible tells me that jesus sacrificed himself (his earthly self) to atone for the sins of man. now crucifixion is likely a pretty nasty way to die but he got a fastpass to heaven to sit at his father's side for all eternity. i'll be frank - that doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice to me...

alasdair
Click to expand...

That was not what happened when Jesus did what he did. I mean, he demonstrated full mastery over matter when he lived and probably didn't even feel any of the pain on the cross. It has probably been emphasised so much because it's a kind of suffering we would be able to relate to.

In my limited understanding what actually happened was something much greater and much more horrific than that. At the moment of his death he was in the most excruciating suffering probably known to any being in this solar system, if not the Universe, but it was a SPIRITUAL form of suffering. He basically took up into himself a tremendous amount of dark energy, karma, and soul fragments that had been holding us back for a very long time and transmuted them into light or banished them from our planet forever.

If he hadn't done what he did humanity would be in a much more dire state than we are now and the kind of spiritual accomplishments now seen would not be possible. Sadly, we haven't been given the whole truth about Jesus and what he was because it would be too empowering and inspirering for us. Only few have been able to really benefit from it.
 
define 'eternal torture'

define 'heaven and bliss'

mentioning this heaven/hell thing kind of made it a bit nonsensical in terms of a hypothetical sacrifice question. i expected something more along the lines of killing yourself to save another persons life, to end someone pain, or for some sort of knowledge to bestow upon the world


but..

So, if you had the option of you, yourself moving into everlasting euphoria and beauty, and in turn the rest of humanity burns and suffers forever would you take it?
Click to expand...

Would it really be euphoria with the guilt and knowledge of what you had done? Or would this be erased from my memory? Also, as I said above, define 'everlasting euphoria and beauty', because i dont really think such a thing can exist within the human mind (in psychological terms)
 
First thought is - So murderers and rapists can live in eternal bliss?!... Even with that I'd have to say yes, I'd willingly be banished to torment for eternity. Sure there are bad and evil people on this earth but there are innocent and good too. I'd do this for my son and his father J if the choice was me or one of them. My logic, how many babies, kids, genuinely kind and loving people are out there in the world, it'd would be worth it. There's no way I could live in bliss knowing I sent everyone to be tortured. My only hope would be that my mind would snap and I'd go mad somewhere along the line of the torture. Hell even if it wouldn't I'd do it.
 
i believe the whole jesus thing represents that sometimes you have to sacrifice your own self interests for the good of the greater people and i think him rising from the dead means that everything will turn out fine in the end. i dont think it was meant to one up every religion like the past churches ive been too make it out to be lol

There's no way I could live in bliss knowing I sent everyone to be tortured
Click to expand...
does that apply on a much smaller scale also?
 
how could it be good for yourself if you know you made it bad for everyone else ?
and how could it bad if you knew you made it good for everyone else ?

so you can feel bad about feeling good
or feel good about feeling bad

if bliss and torture are both equal in value then you end up with 0 on both side except that one side brings good to everyone so ill go with that, but would that be called a sacrifice ? its pretty self serving imo
 
Ninae said:
That was not what happened when Jesus did what he did. I mean, he demonstrated full mastery over matter when he lived and probably didn't even feel any of the pain on the cross. It has probably been emphasised so much because it's a kind of suffering we would be able to relate to.

In my limited understanding what actually happened was something much greater and much more horrific than that. At the moment of his death he was in the most excruciating suffering probably known to any being in this solar system, if not the Universe, but it was a SPIRITUAL form of suffering. He basically took up into himself a tremendous amount of dark energy, karma, and soul fragments that had been holding us back for a very long time and transmuted them into light or banished them from our planet forever.

If he hadn't done what he did humanity would be in a much more dire state than we are now and the kind of spiritual accomplishments now seen would not be possible. Sadly, we haven't been given the whole truth about Jesus and what he was because it would be too empowering and inspirering for us. Only few have been able to really benefit from it.
Click to expand...

This is interesting. Where did you read about this(Jesus taking on all this bad karma and transmuting it)?
 
Since "everyone else" includes people I know and care about, I'd go to hell. Besides, I know myself well enough to know that the greatest pleasure would bore the hell out of me eventually, while pain never gets dull (though I'm no masochist).
 
I would put it in this frame of mind.
Would there be a person i love so much that i love them to be my equal as i have learnt to void myself from all egoic desires and have found myself at my true centered self. This means i have no ill behaviours, no prelude thoughts that could and could not form into behaviours that arent best for humankind, im perfectly good because i've found my innerself. If i am you and you am i and at this level enlightenment we are all the same voided from personality and ego that sets us differently. That means i love everyone else equally to the same extent and i love everyone as if they were my equal. Only this kind of person could be contemplated this situation hypothetically to be considered real to any extent. Given that this person has sacrificed there life for eternal hell to liberate all other people. Then all other people being on the same wavelength as this person, myself (fully enlightened, hypothetically) Would Be in a paradox like myself, as we have perfectly balanced each other with complete unconditional love thus anyone lacking in unconditional love would have pleasure be reverted to pain and myself allthough being in pain, is liberated through pleasure of being in such a state with everyone else that i will of known the pain to be an illusion all along and accepted to the contemplation. Everything is a state of mind so being able to prove to yourself something makes it valid to your reality. And if your reality has merged with everyone else. The self and other myraids of the self then there is no seasaw there is balance so there is no choice. To think differently is to be true to that individual also but untrue once he suffers for the good cause and realises he didn't need to suffer and gains a higher awareness, ultimately at the top when all illusions have been cleared there is only one truth. imo
 
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