Wicca...

[azzazza !?]

"Mystique" and "Mystic" are two different things.

If you are talking about cut n' paste "wicca", then there is actually a very technical term for that: "Fluffbunnyism".

i used mystique in the sense of experiencing the mystical (no?); and yes, i did mean in the academic sense. a mystic, once he has found union, will externalize his experience; carry it outwardly. this actually happens in situ; a mystical state can not be held for longer then a few hours, at most. the second the mystic uses a means external to his oneness; a reflection of himself, such as language; marks his journey back to the world. most of the times, if not always, they will use frameworks and concepts of existing traditions to varying degrees; which usually also provided important 'construction sites' (to borrow the term from Heideggers On the Way to Language) along his mystical path to the union with the divine. Any exoteric religious system is a conceptualized esoterism. don't absolutize the poles these terms denote; in reality, they exist within each other. an absolute esoterism would be eternally deaf and mute; a God, forever locked in a little prison chamber with no windows. alone.

i apply your technical term of fluffbunnyism to what i generally would describe as 'new age'. personally, i'm not immediatly lumping the theological concept of the divine in wicca under that category. to my own surprise actually. but yes, some cut 'n past wicca can surely be. but some cut n paste christianity be just as such imho. it ceases to be an actual religion at that point; it becomes more of a 'feelgood pastime'. fluffbunnyism is very much a disease of our time in general. it springs from our current arrant marginalisation and misappropriation of death. it is becoming a taboo these days. everybody has to be young and vibrant, we're all believing science will make us immortal one day, until then: cryogenics, hell even genitalia have to be shaved so as to look like prepubescent teens. lets keep death and withering as far away from our beds as possible and pretent it doesn't really exist. its something that happens to other people. not me. and thank god for television; now we can 'virtualize' it. we are losing a genuine relation to death, all superficiality and fluffbunnyism resulting. Heidegger once called it 'the mystery of pain'.

(yes, i've been revisiting heideggers thought lately...)

 

[swilow]

If you are talking about cut n' paste "wicca", then there is actually a very technical term for that: "Fluffbunnyism".

No, its called freedom to be do away with rituals you don't care for or have no personal meaning. I don't understand your cynicism. You can't be an expert on everything 'esoteric' yet you scorn a lot of it.

I adopt all sorts of beliefs into my own magickal practice, mainly Thelemic and Chaos Magick, also the Zos Kia Cultus beliefs and Golden dawn traditions, as well as utilising tarot, the I Ching, the Book of Tao/Dao, and buddhist meditation; but I take what I like from each, and what works for me, and use that instead of reading nerdy spellbooks. So I wouldn't call myself a wiccan or witch; more a practitioner of magick and worshipper of nature with an urge towards non-duality

Wicca isn't actually a religion or an -ism. Its an umbrella term for neo-pagan religious practise, which is (more often then not) nature worship and/or goddess worship. I peronally identify more strongly with the darker sides, but have recently been using more "wiccan" ideas (three faced godess) to symbolise archetypal structures that exist (or don't exist, it really doesnt actually matter).

Do what thou wilt shall be the Whole ov thee Law

 

[ocean]

^Darker side meaning what?

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

So MDAO- You, Jam and Enki are like these fascinating encyclopedias of religion/Spirituality.
You humble me and often intimidate me

Wow -- I'm blushing. It's just been a family trade and a recurrent personal obsession, truth be told.

Everytime I read your posts I am so intrigued but often feel out of place (which is why I lurk more than post in P&S) -
But I would like your opinion on REAL old paganism. (Not Wicca)
Do you feel it is all false, based on books which misrepresent the true history ??

I think our history of the indigenous religions of Europe and the Middle East is very fragmented, I'll put it that way. Very few writings from the time survive, and very few people wrote back then. We have a lot of art, but that can be interpreted any number of ways, when we've completely lost the historical context in which it was made and distributed.

The Kalash people of Pakistan are the final remaining practitioners of a pagan Indo-European faith, if they haven't all been converted to Islam by now. I really hope they haven't, because their religion is an anthropologist's gem.

If you're talking about the story contents of the religions themselves, I wouldn't exactly say they're false, but not exactly true either. They're myths, which evolved orally over millennia to make sense of the world, in human terms. Even though we don't fill in the borders of our reality with those exact myths anymore, we still make myths. And all the myths old and new that we encounter ultimately point to one great truth, and that is that we as sentient beings create the world to a great extent simply by our self-aware observation and interaction with it, and each other.

Sometimes it takes a myth that's archaic or exotic to bring that point into focus.

I mean, alot of the histroy put in writing when Christianity was taking over was written by Christians- so the Pagan beliefs were demonized in a way- or changed over in order to convert pagans (holidays, saints etc.)
Do you all believe there is ever a way to fully realize what the Old religion was?

More historical evidence may yet come to light. Our knowledge WILL probably grow, regarding these old ways. But I don't know to what extent. I don't think we could ever reconstruct something that could be a seamless continuation of the way things used to be in the first half of the first millennium. But, I do think you're going to see the foundation of new pagan (and gnostic, and esoteric) communities, that basically have all the core elements of these old ways nailed down, but within a entirely new, modern mythos.

One think I noticed about the Masons is how much their mythos is one of the late middle ages and Enlightenment era. Just like Crowley smacks heavily of the Romantic era in his choice of metaphors.

 

[ocean]

^It's a good obsession to have....

But, I do think you're going to see the foundation of new pagan (and gnostic, and esoteric) communities, that basically have all the core elements of these old ways nailed down, but within a entirely new, modern mythos.

I think we are already beginning to see this.......

 

[X]

Wicca = Modern Witchcraft, the direct meaning of the word is "wise one" or " the wise" I believe. I have begun my journey as a practicing witch, but unlike many others who follow tradition, I make it my own. I'm not a typical witch, I guess. I feel very connected to nature, the universe, because I feel as if I understand it on a spiritual level, and immerse myself in science, physics, and the nature of reality. Instead of letting Science destroy religion, I use it to understand the nature of our reality, and let it reinforce my beliefs. I take from many different aspects of many different religions, because they are all the same. The Gods and Goddesses are the same, with different names, no matter what you believe.

My ritual music is electronic, modern, but my tools are those I have bought, made, and acquired from other witches. I do not practice the same way other witches do, while I respect tradition, I find it a bit archaic and a little too ancient. The old ways still prevail, however, in the way that I use my tools, and as I respect life, nature, and give my thanks to the Goddess and God daily. Like I have always believed, you do not have to go to a church or conduct a super elaborate ritual to worship, instead I use creative visualization, because I believe the astral plane, while we cannot see it, exists and is as real as anything else we perceive... What we can see astrally will manifest itself on the physical plane, therefore it is real.


I'm sorry if I ramble, or repeat myself, or am unclear, but my mind is usually a cluttered thing. Wicca tends to ground me, calm me. I just got home from working all night, so I guess I'm a little wound up...



I don't know that Wicca is hereditary, but all the women in my family are witches, so naturally I was drawn to it.

My Book of Shadows is unique in the sense that I do not use it for spellcasting or ritual instruction so much as it is a dream journal, scrapbook, diary, etc. Almost everything I think of that changes my perception goes in there.

So I guess I would say I am not a typical witch? Or a witch at all. I am a firm believer in the Goddess and God, and I do my best to "practice" often, but with a full time job, 2 kids, and a slew of hobbies to keep me busy, I usually get to it here and there, but not daily. Meditation is a daily thing, but it is not the same as ritual worship.

What would you say makes a Witch?

 

[Jamshyd]

No, its called freedom to be do away with rituals you don't care for or have no personal meaning. I don't understand your cynicism. You can't be an expert on everything 'esoteric' yet you scorn a lot of it.

So you're neither Wicca nor Pagan nor a fluffbunny, but you're still offended? I don't understand either.

Of course, you're free to do away with whatever inconvenient rituals you feel like. Just don't get offended when others laugh at you.

There used to be an AWESOME site called "whywiccanssuck" but it seems to have gone offline and I cannot find an image of it preserved anywhere. The author of that site made some good arguments against fluffbunnyism.

My cynicism is a natural result of hanging out with this bunch for a while. You eventually realize that a LOT of it is charlatan ego-bolstering. I am not talking about you, swil, just explaining why I'm so cynical.

And for the record, I never claimed to be an expert on anything.

 

[gloeek]

I'm not wiccan- though I do pull a bit from it.......
I was at one time I guess but my spiritual beliefs changed......
I'm interested but can't say I am a wiccan

What (to gloeek) is a practicing witch?

A lot of "witches" don't consider themselves to be Wiccans. That's all I was really stating. But, in my opinion, a witch is anyone who practices any kind of magick, but doesn't really believe the entire wiccan concept of the Goddess and things like that. I don't consider myself a Wiccan, but I do practice witchcraft and I believe in a lot of Wiccan concepts just not everything.

 

[Jamshyd]

^ So do you consider an Enochian Practitioner a "witch"? (Just curious).

 

[swilow]

So you're neither Wicca nor Pagan nor a fluffbunny, but you're still offended? I don't understand either.

Of course, you're free to do away with whatever inconvenient rituals you feel like. Just don't get offended when others laugh at you.

There used to be an AWESOME site called "whywiccanssuck" but it seems to have gone offline and I cannot find an image of it preserved anywhere. The author of that site made some good arguments against fluffbunnyism.

My cynicism is a natural result of hanging out with this bunch for a while. You eventually realize that a LOT of it is charlatan ego-bolstering. I am not talking about you, swil, just explaining why I'm so cynical.

And for the record, I never claimed to be an expert on anything.

Yar, fair enough. I got a bit carried away. I'm not too worried if people laugh at me, because no-one who would laugh is involved.

I tend to think almost any form of religion can be "fluffbunnyish", in that it is inherently subective. I wouldn't even really call wicca a religion- more an umbrella term for various "neo-pagan" beliefs. Now, these beliefs may be concoted by the Gardnerian and Alexandrian tradition, with mentions of old wise women and grandmother handing down magickal secrets; I don't think we can say these beliefs are ancient because we have no idea how ancient people 'worshipped'. We assume they worshiped nature and the varying elements of it because it gave them life, but, seeing as we don't really worship modern elements such as the internet or sythetic medicine, we might be completely wrong about the beliefs of pre-hitoric people.

However, I would say that, because our world is sufferring so much at the moment (and has been for a while), people are desperate to discover meaning in what is remaining of the natural world (and preserve it); and have subsequently tapped into an archetypal, religious perspetice towards nature, based on older beliefs (the sun IS a spirit, forests ARE sentient, etc.) because, while the sun is in reality a burning orb of nuclear fire, it also REPRESENTS a part of the spirit world of nature; life-giver, nurturer, destroyer etc. Its twin capacities are manifested in one big old sun.

A lot of magick emphasises the diverse and multi-natured aspect of everything; spirits are everywhere, demons are everywhere; and bundles it together to dethrone dualism, and simply find peace in their minds. When you have peace, then you can exercise your TRUE will, not your ego's, or your ID's or your Fred Flinstones; and when oyur mind is free, egoic desires fall away and thoughts can just settle. Thats why I persoanlly hold reverence for nature, as I know that I am not alone ever.

Ocean, when I referred to the darker sides, I meant the more anxious and fearful aspects of life; whilst aesthetically, darker things (art, black/doom/drone music, "extreme pychedelics", books) have simply naturally appealed to me, I find the idea of confronting fears to be liberating; and so often cultivate a feeling of controlled uneasiness or simple defying/perverting of social norms (also controlled) or engaging in things that are 'frightening' and test my own limits. While that sounds like a complete ego-massage, its a way of blasting the ego based, self-centred fear which has hurt me my whole life into a more realistic, open, and more engaging arena; by facing fear, I shed my irrationality, and move onwards/laterally/upwards each time. The only aim is freedom.

Hmm- long post :D

 

[Sentience]

I draw more from Shamanistic and Eastern schools of thought myself, but I study all of it. Its all energy and awareness. I like to explore the potential of my own mind. Bridge the gap between the conscious an unconscious.

 

[Jamshyd]

Bumping to avoid prune.