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Why does Knowledge limit us?

are you refereeing to the "Cannon" theory, as described in "Godel Escher & Bach: The Eternal Golden Braid"?
if so, doesnt the theory of that book return a lot to "Chaos" and the fractal, along with a rhythm or schematic that is commonly drawn in nature, math, science and art?

IDK, been reading that for ~16 years off and on -
aye... heheh.


now looking around i cant find my copy, but it does seem relative and rarely discussed.

"GEB - The Eternal Golden Brain" is a masterful work, which though often accused of being abstruse is the best book on consciousness this non-scientist has attempted to read, my own copy is in storage due to my library taking over my tiny appartment.

As a direct response to the OPs question I would recommend all interested in such matters to the book: Impossibility: The Limits of Science, and the Science of limits (Caveat - Link leads to an online pdf version, ) by John D. Barrow. As an introduction to the layman it draws on the themes of infinity/Infinitesimals and the philosophy of science - Well written and presented it is a hive of new information/Ideas presented without boring the reader.
 
My main question though that I would ask to you Bluelighters is, do you think it is possible that our human race could ever know everything? If not, why not? Are the powers and forces of this universe so powerful that perhaps some things just simply can't be known, or that these mysteries of the universe are meant to be unknown by some higher power?

collectively, we probably all have the knowledge of everything, but individually, i dont think anyone ever will, unless they connect with people that probably dont want anyone to connect with them anyways. gonna whip out the circular logic, but maybe we know everything because we know that we wont know everything?
 
collectively, we probably all have the knowledge of everything, but individually, i dont think anyone ever will, unless they connect with people that probably dont want anyone to connect with them anyways. gonna whip out the circular logic, but maybe we know everything because we know that we wont know everything?
The only way to know everything is for all the sureness to drain out of "I know", and all the doubt out of "I think".

You don't miss either of them, IME, because both were nonsense. "I think" really means "I think", and "I know" means "I think I know".

Peace...
 
^^

What about Gnosis? does one have to think they have attained Gnosis...or would they simply know, in the gnostic sense of the word?
 
I'm not sure what you're thinking of as the gnostic sense of the word.

You could say that all 'true' knowing is direct knowing, by being.

In other words, one actually always knows what is going on -- why would there ever be a question about what is happening here, now, at any time, with the one in question?

So -- there's "something else" happening, a kind of parallel search, that drives one to want to know about "what is not going on directly", what is happening out there, with others.

It seems so simple, so basic, but sometimes questioning the most simple, basic things... why this need? Why is knowing directly through sensing what is going on here/now at all times not enough?

Does it seem too silly to question? I hope not, because such questioning sometimes brings answers.
 
Being an esoteric philosophy Gnosticism (Proper noun = 1st-4th Century Christian heterodox sects, simple noun - one of the Hellenistic categories of knowledge) it's hard to ground gnosis in words.

I don't think Gnosticism can be defined as simple or basic. It is a complex religion with multifaceted goals, with close links to Hermeticiam and neo-Platonism and neo-Pythagoreanism. Its ultimate goal might be said to be an esoteric path to Theosis, with the real self being reduced to the divine spark within each of us, with self-knowledge representing a means to an end, and not the telos of the sum of the categories of Hellenistic knowledge, including gnosis itself.

As for questioning the most basic things - is it not our nature?

as for

Does it seem too silly to question? I hope not, because such questioning sometimes brings answers.

Hardly. It's the central goal of we Sophiophiles.:):)
 
Being an esoteric philosophy Gnosticism (Proper noun = 1st-4th Century Christian heterodox sects, simple noun - one of the Hellenistic categories of knowledge) it's hard to ground gnosis in words.

I don't think Gnosticism can be defined as simple or basic.
You're actually free to define it as you like, and people are free to align themselves with that definition, or prefer a stricter definition, or whatever.

None of it seems quite as important as it... seems? ;-). Now if it were me, I'd be zeroing in on "underlying reasons? My psyche?" I love self-enquiry... it can be addictive, I tell ya, once you get bored enough with the robotic-ness of the usual way of looking at things.
It is a complex religion with multifaceted goals, with close links to Hermeticiam and neo-Platonism and neo-Pythagoreanism. Its ultimate goal might be said to be an esoteric path to Theosis, with the real self being reduced to the divine spark within each of us, with self-knowledge representing a means to an end, and not the telos of the sum of the categories of Hellenistic knowledge, including gnosis itself.

As for questioning the most basic things - is it not our nature?
It's human nature, sure.

In essence based on historical survival -- the survival of history. Primarily one's own, and that of those one cares about. The survival of the insistence on time as an actuality. That's very, very important to human beings.

Except that it's a self-perpetuating loop that keeps repeating history because it's important that history repeat. Continuity is important.

Continuity in time is the primal illusion.

It neither exists, nor can it.

Peace...
 
"It's true, there might be things we will never know, but why is that?

Is it that humans are not intelligent or as advanced enough to know what 'everything' is? Is it something we could never even understand? Or is it because the mysteries of this universe aren't meant to be known?

I am always asking myself Why? For example, Why is the universe here? Is this a question that can be answered with scientific reasoning or is it a spiritual answer I must fine within myself? This is just one little example, my brain is always asking why to everything. Why am I here? Is there a God? Why don't I know?

My main question though that I would ask to you Bluelighters is, do you think it is possible that our human race could ever know everything? If not, why not? Are the powers and forces of this universe so powerful that perhaps some things just simply can't be known, or that these mysteries of the universe are meant to be unknown by some higher power?

Are we really limited by knowledge? Or is knowledge endless?"

To answer your main question first: "do you think it is possible that our human race could ever know everything? If not, why not? Are the powers and forces of this universe so powerful that perhaps some things just simply can't be known, or that these mysteries of the universe are meant to be unknown by some higher power?"

I have come to the understanding that you may know everything in this entire world, you may read every book a thousand times, you may have traveled to every city, but if you dont know yourself, everything of which you know, you know falsely. But it is true on the contrary. You may not know anything at all of the world, but if you only know yourself, than you will have already known the very principle by which all else is known, thus knowing all things. I believe in society today, we are all pursuing or at least trying to pursue truth, but through the wrong means. We are looking to answer the questions of a spiritual essence in the material world and we wonder why we are all lost. We are looking to find the answers to ourselves, outside of ourselves, and we wonder why we suffer. Its as if we have an itch on or head, but we are scratching our foot! The answer we seek lies within, this is what all true spiritual teachers will tell you and it seems so obvious, so when then why cant we find "it"? well the answer is because we have then started seeking inwardly, with the same means we have been using outwardly, which is through rationale and logical thinking. But truth is never logic! truth is here right now! so what we are doing is bringing the world inside, but what we must do, is distinguish between the two; ourselves and the world. the world is the mirror opposite of the self, know thy self, know the world. If you mix the two you cannot find peace. Your self will always be in the world, and you will not remain at peace. Once u can seperate and distinguish between the two, peace will result. You will laugh and say "oh, I still am, and there is the world too!" So to distinguish between the world and yourself, you cannot think about it, because thinking about it is putting yourself in the world and thus prolonging the problem, which is you are in the world. To pull yourself out of the world, you seek within, but not through thought. you seek within through direct cognition, through direct seeing. You do not need any outside influence to see yourself, you dont need any external light, you dont need anything or anyone, because you are simply looking at the very essence of your own being. you do this by feeling and seeing directly, without thought. This is our problem. we are looking within, but we are looking within through thought, through the worlds mind and we arent distinguishing between the two; ourself and the world thus causing us to suffer. I believe truth is to be known and felt by each and every individual reguardless of race or circumstance because we are all gods children and truth be thy name!

Your second question: Why is the universe here? Is this a question that can be answered with scientific reasoning or is it a spiritual answer I must fine within myself? This is just one little example, my brain is always asking why to everything. Why am I here? Is there a God? Why don't I know?

Why is the universe here? Well to be honest, i dont think there is a point to existence, other than for the sake of being so. For our enjoyment, and ultimately, for gods enjoyment. This question can be answered through understanding the very essence of ourselves, as we are made in the image of god and god is the universe. if we may understand the very essence of ourselves as an image of god and the universe, we will be understanding the same essence of the universe because as terence mckenna said "nature is self similar across scale" and "as is the macrocosm, so is the microcosm" So then, when you look deep down within yourself, what is the thing that you ultimately desire? it is but of two poles; love and peace on one side, or power and fear on the other. This is the same duality as darkness and light, awake and asleep. To be awake would be to be enlightened; open to the love and light of god and with this comes peace. To be asleep would be to not know the light and love of god, to be in deep darkness and with this comes great fear of death because you feel like you havnt lived a day and yet u are already going to die. you feel this way because you are miserable without the light and love of god. you dont seek light or love, all u seek is power! so you see there is awake and asleep, or peace and power, which are the two fundamental principles we seek to be acquainted with and through gods unlimited opulence, he gives us the choice to choose. So, to summarize, there is no point for our being here other than for us to seek out and choose between staying asleep or waking up to the truth of god. This is just one turn of the wheel of existence in a game of roulette and we get to choose whether we place our bets on black or white, as the wheel turns a thousand and one times.

your third question: "Is it that humans are not intelligent or as advanced enough to know what 'everything' is? Is it something we could never even understand? Or is it because the mysteries of this universe aren't meant to be known?"

Humans are in fact the only species on the planet who are capable of understanding what everything is. We are the bridge between the animals and the angels, getting the best of both worlds. You will have to realize that god created everything, so to understand god, would be to understand everything, for god is in all things. The problem we face as humans, is the contamination of society with the darkness and ignorance of illusion, far from the reality and truth of god. We are stuck seeking the truth external to ourselves, when in fact, the truth is to be understood only from internal seeking. Finally, when we do start internal seeking, we bring with us our logical and rationale mind of the world, adding to our confusion. We must stop associating ourselves with the world, and it this isnt possible, which is probably isnt these days, we must not be attached to the associations we do make with the world. Truth isnt a conditioning, its a de-conditioning. you have to un-program all the crap and lies that society tells you is true, look within your heart and deepest emotions, and find the truth there through direct cognition.
 
What is it about knowledge/thought?

I told someone on another list that thought is no longer very important here, and they asked what I do consider important? It was an easy answer...

> What does concern you?

The way the mind continually "misses" reality in its attempt to continue, and feel like something's missing.
 
I told someone on another list that thought is no longer very important here, and they asked what I do consider important? It was an easy answer...

> What does concern you?

The way the mind continually "misses" reality in its attempt to continue, and feel like something's missing.

LMAO nice man, I like that. Thoughts are like the bridge between ourselves and whats important. But if you look real closely, you'll see that the bridge is actually a longer route and whats important is here now :D
 
"It's true, there might be things we will never know, but why is that?

Is it that humans are not intelligent or as advanced enough to know what 'everything' is? Is it something we could never even understand? Or is it because the mysteries of this universe aren't meant to be known?

I am always asking myself Why? For example, Why is the universe here? Is this a question that can be answered with scientific reasoning or is it a spiritual answer I must fine within myself? This is just one little example, my brain is always asking why to everything. Why am I here? Is there a God? Why don't I know?

My main question though that I would ask to you Bluelighters is, do you think it is possible that our human race could ever know everything? If not, why not? Are the powers and forces of this universe so powerful that perhaps some things just simply can't be known, or that these mysteries of the universe are meant to be unknown by some higher power?

Are we really limited by knowledge? Or is knowledge endless?"

To answer your main question first: "do you think it is possible that our human race could ever know everything? If not, why not? Are the powers and forces of this universe so powerful that perhaps some things just simply can't be known, or that these mysteries of the universe are meant to be unknown by some higher power?"

I have come to the understanding that you may know everything in this entire world, you may read every book a thousand times, you may have traveled to every city, but if you dont know yourself, everything of which you know, you know falsely. But it is true on the contrary. You may not know anything at all of the world, but if you only know yourself, than you will have already known the very principle by which all else is known, thus knowing all things. I believe in society today, we are all pursuing or at least trying to pursue truth, but through the wrong means. We are looking to answer the questions of a spiritual essence in the material world and we wonder why we are all lost. We are looking to find the answers to ourselves, outside of ourselves, and we wonder why we suffer. Its as if we have an itch on or head, but we are scratching our foot! The answer we seek lies within, this is what all true spiritual teachers will tell you and it seems so obvious, so when then why cant we find "it"? well the answer is because we have then started seeking inwardly, with the same means we have been using outwardly, which is through rationale and logical thinking. But truth is never logic! truth is here right now! so what we are doing is bringing the world inside, but what we must do, is distinguish between the two; ourselves and the world. the world is the mirror opposite of the self, know thy self, know the world. If you mix the two you cannot find peace. Your self will always be in the world, and you will not remain at peace. Once u can seperate and distinguish between the two, peace will result. You will laugh and say "oh, I still am, and there is the world too!" So to distinguish between the world and yourself, you cannot think about it, because thinking about it is putting yourself in the world and thus prolonging the problem, which is you are in the world. To pull yourself out of the world, you seek within, but not through thought. you seek within through direct cognition, through direct seeing. You do not need any outside influence to see yourself, you dont need any external light, you dont need anything or anyone, because you are simply looking at the very essence of your own being. you do this by feeling and seeing directly, without thought. This is our problem. we are looking within, but we are looking within through thought, through the worlds mind and we arent distinguishing between the two; ourself and the world thus causing us to suffer. I believe truth is to be known and felt by each and every individual reguardless of race or circumstance because we are all gods children and truth be thy name!

Your second question: Why is the universe here? Is this a question that can be answered with scientific reasoning or is it a spiritual answer I must fine within myself? This is just one little example, my brain is always asking why to everything. Why am I here? Is there a God? Why don't I know?

Why is the universe here? Well to be honest, i dont think there is a point to existence, other than for the sake of being so. For our enjoyment, and ultimately, for gods enjoyment. This question can be answered through understanding the very essence of ourselves, as we are made in the image of god and god is the universe. if we may understand the very essence of ourselves as an image of god and the universe, we will be understanding the same essence of the universe because as terence mckenna said "nature is self similar across scale" and "as is the macrocosm, so is the microcosm" So then, when you look deep down within yourself, what is the thing that you ultimately desire? it is but of two poles; love and peace on one side, or power and fear on the other. This is the same duality as darkness and light, awake and asleep. To be awake would be to be enlightened; open to the love and light of god and with this comes peace. To be asleep would be to not know the light and love of god, to be in deep darkness and with this comes great fear of death because you feel like you havnt lived a day and yet u are already going to die. you feel this way because you are miserable without the light and love of god. you dont seek light or love, all u seek is power! so you see there is awake and asleep, or peace and power, which are the two fundamental principles we seek to be acquainted with and through gods unlimited opulence, he gives us the choice to choose. So, to summarize, there is no point for our being here other than for us to seek out and choose between staying asleep or waking up to the truth of god. This is just one turn of the wheel of existence in a game of roulette and we get to choose whether we place our bets on black or white, as the wheel turns a thousand and one times.

your third question: "Is it that humans are not intelligent or as advanced enough to know what 'everything' is? Is it something we could never even understand? Or is it because the mysteries of this universe aren't meant to be known?"

Humans are in fact the only species on the planet who are capable of understanding what everything is. We are the bridge between the animals and the angels, getting the best of both worlds. You will have to realize that god created everything, so to understand god, would be to understand everything, for god is in all things. The problem we face as humans, is the contamination of society with the darkness and ignorance of illusion, far from the reality and truth of god. We are stuck seeking the truth external to ourselves, when in fact, the truth is to be understood only from internal seeking. Finally, when we do start internal seeking, we bring with us our logical and rationale mind of the world, adding to our confusion. We must stop associating ourselves with the world, and it this isnt possible, which is probably isnt these days, we must not be attached to the associations we do make with the world. Truth isnt a conditioning, its a de-conditioning. you have to un-program all the crap and lies that society tells you is true, look within your heart and deepest emotions, and find the truth there through direct cognition.

Wow that was an amazing read. That's some wonderful insight you provided for me, thanks! My views and beliefs on these subjects are always changing and evolving, and after reading yours and a couple other people's posts my ideas have evolved (or devolved for that matter if you look at it like that ;)) a little bit, much appreciated bluelighters thanks for the help!=D

Truth isnt a conditioning, its a de-conditioning.

Don't mind if I quote you on that from now on, Love it ;)
 
Thanks Tromps, im glad you enjoyed reading that and sure, feel free to use any of it :)
 
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