I wholeheartedly understand that "nootropic" is at best a vernacular terminology and not a scientific term, but one thing I do not quite understand is why caffeine is considered a "nootropic" while amphetamines are commonly related to as "tweaked drugs" and other derogatory terms. The positive cognitive enhancing effects of amphetamines have been proven across the board for a wide range of conditions and this has been known for more than 100 years. Could this whole linguistic controversy be purely contributed to the fact that propaganda even seeps through the internet and the people who use it? Who knows?
Why aren't amphetamines considered nootropics?
- Thread starter X11400
- Start date
4meSM
Bluelighter
I believe there is a difference between cognitive enhancers (mostly stimulants) and nootropics.
I think it's because you have to be high on amps for it to work and you eventually become somewhat tolerant while the classic nootropics are supposed to work longterm and actually improve your mental clarity, ect... even while sober.
But I'm skeptical about "nootropics".
I think it's because you have to be high on amps for it to work and you eventually become somewhat tolerant while the classic nootropics are supposed to work longterm and actually improve your mental clarity, ect... even while sober.
But I'm skeptical about "nootropics".
What exactly is your definition of "being high" if not ingesting chemicals which alter the physiology of the human body? Because, I'm pretty sure that if you're ingesting "nootropics" then you are getting high in some sense. Also I'm not sure if you know, but amphetamines have been proven to work for treatment of ADHD and if that doesn't have cognitive enhancing values then I do not know what does.
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4meSM
Bluelighter
By being high I just meant being under the influence of amphetamine.
Amphetamine is an excellent cognitive enhancer, maybe I didn't worded it right but what I was trying to say is that for it to work you have to keep taking it. When you use it to treat adhd you usually take amphetamine everyday (or when needed) but ,to my understanding, the benefits don't remain after you "come down". It works very well while you're on it but the moment it leaves the body the adhd symptoms come back.
I might be mistaken but I think that's not supposed to happen with traditional nootropics. They are meant to improve your memory, blood flow, concentration and other things even if you're not currently under the influence of the nootropic.
But yeah I think the definition of nootropic is somewhat blurry as there aren't enough long-term studies yet. Or maybe I'm wrong and I just haven't seen them.
Amphetamine is an excellent cognitive enhancer, maybe I didn't worded it right but what I was trying to say is that for it to work you have to keep taking it. When you use it to treat adhd you usually take amphetamine everyday (or when needed) but ,to my understanding, the benefits don't remain after you "come down". It works very well while you're on it but the moment it leaves the body the adhd symptoms come back.
I might be mistaken but I think that's not supposed to happen with traditional nootropics. They are meant to improve your memory, blood flow, concentration and other things even if you're not currently under the influence of the nootropic.
But yeah I think the definition of nootropic is somewhat blurry as there aren't enough long-term studies yet. Or maybe I'm wrong and I just haven't seen them.
SirTophamHat
Bluelighter
Nootropics are designed to optimize or improve your thinking, amphetamines just speed it up. Amphetamines can improve focus if that is lacking. They won't improve your baseline ability to think.
Improve your rationalizations. Or just do drugs and don't try to rationalize it to yourself as healthy.
Pill2Chill
Bluelight Crew
Re-opened & bumped upon request (that others and myself consider legit).
hangyourhead
Bluelighter
More like a dirty, shallow nootropic compared to say IMO: modafinil, R-modafinil, tianeptine, kratom and it's opioid, stimulant, anti-inflammatory, and antidepressant/mild psychedelia via 5-ht modulation (structure close to tryptamines), piracetam, aniracetam, hydergine, 2C-D ~10mg>, l-theanine, ashwaghanda, ect.
Who were you even referring to when you made this comment? I never in any way Even tried to rationalize my usage of anything. I just think it's unfair that a drug which mimics human trace amines has such an unfortunate stigma.
There is evidence for some, that there are long term benefits from treatment of ADHD treatment with amphetamines.
Do you care to actually cite sources which confirm your statements? I'm sorry, but I'm a little bit of a skeptic about believing that a grossly classified class of drugs would cause these effects.
SirTophamHat
Bluelighter
No exact source, I guess it depends on interpreted definitions... from the all mighty Google...
adjective
1.
(of a drug) used to enhance memory or other cognitive functions.
noun
1.
a nootropic drug
---
If a nootropic is a drug expressly for memory enhancement,an amphetamine wouldn't qualify. If we spread it out so that focus is included in the spectrum of cognitive enhancement, it may be. IMO as nootropics are traditionally more related to data recall, I wouldn't group them together. An argument could be made against that, I guess, why not?
adjective
1.
(of a drug) used to enhance memory or other cognitive functions.
noun
1.
a nootropic drug
---
If a nootropic is a drug expressly for memory enhancement,an amphetamine wouldn't qualify. If we spread it out so that focus is included in the spectrum of cognitive enhancement, it may be. IMO as nootropics are traditionally more related to data recall, I wouldn't group them together. An argument could be made against that, I guess, why not?
Yeah, I agree. As I previously stated earlier, I'm highly skeptical of a situation where taking these supposed "nootropics" once can have all of these long term effects. With regards to amphetamines at therapeutic levels, there are definite temporary improvement with cognition which cannot be denied or attributed to just placebo. It still seems (and I would love to be disproven) that these categories are based not in the actual positive effects of the drugs, but an elitist classification of different stimulants, rooted in drug propaganda and negative stigma.
Also here is one thing I found: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4244906/
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hangyourhead
Bluelighter
Trust me man, SirTop and 4meSM both know their pharmacology. I've read many of their posts over the years and I would personally take their word, considering pharmacology, pharmacokinetics, and the topic of nootropics has been a fascination of mine. If this helps clear anything up, amphetamines are very capable of causing neurotoxicity.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2670101/
No, I'm sorry but I'm not going to automatically take someone's word based on their supposed history. Also this fact about amphetamines is nothing new, however it doesn't apply to the therapeutic range. Obviously if you're constantly bombarding your dopamine neurons with activity, there are going to be problems. If you are going to continue to deny the clinical application of amphetamines for cognitive enhancement, then I don't know what to say.
hangyourhead
Bluelighter
I don't deny clinical significance of amphetamines for cognitive enhancement, I would know I have ADHD. I'm just saying amphetamines are neurotoxic to the dopaminergic system. Dopamine may auto-oxidize to form 6-hydroxydopamine which can damage dopaminergic neurons. Dopaminergic neurons are particularly sensitive to oxidative stress, due in part to their high metabolic rate.
They're are plenty of pre-load stacks that are neuroprotective against this damage to the dopaminergic system and oxidative stress (i.e. melatonin)
They're are plenty of pre-load stacks that are neuroprotective against this damage to the dopaminergic system and oxidative stress (i.e. melatonin)
SirTophamHat
Bluelighter
OK yeah I didn't expect you to take my word for it, X11400. I offered an opinion, not a fact, so you are cool to question that. Thanks hangyourhead for the support, I am thinking this is more of a subjective/philosophical discussion about amphetamines, then again maybe I'm clueless.
Amphetamines aren't designed to make your thinking BETTER from my understanding, they are to make it faster, for longer. jack up your energy. to keep you alert essentially (maybe I'm wrong I'm not a drug historian). nootropics are designed to make your thinking machine function better, rather than at higher speed / for longer. two different goals. does anyone know for sure?
what a hot topic
Amphetamines aren't designed to make your thinking BETTER from my understanding, they are to make it faster, for longer. jack up your energy. to keep you alert essentially (maybe I'm wrong I'm not a drug historian). nootropics are designed to make your thinking machine function better, rather than at higher speed / for longer. two different goals. does anyone know for sure?
what a hot topic
Pill2Chill
Bluelight Crew
But if you have AD(H)D, amps do help with focus and actually have a kinda sedative effect, only works like that for me at normal therapeutic doses though and it's only sedating when taken orally.
SirTophamHat
Bluelighter
^^^ GOOD point.
pharmacologically amp and nootropics have separate mechanisms of action, nootropics mainly cholinergic/glutaminergic and amp having a whole host of different affected pathways--dopamine, serotonin, etc.
so even if amp and nootropics are able to accomplish very similar goals, their ways of getting there are different, and amp has been around a heck of a lot longer (19th century).
pharmacologically amp and nootropics have separate mechanisms of action, nootropics mainly cholinergic/glutaminergic and amp having a whole host of different affected pathways--dopamine, serotonin, etc.
so even if amp and nootropics are able to accomplish very similar goals, their ways of getting there are different, and amp has been around a heck of a lot longer (19th century).
hangyourhead
Bluelighter
True and if one is going to utilize amphetamines/methamphetamine, I would pre-load a stack of neuroprotective, antioxidant nootropics/adaptogens (i.e. piracetam, L-theanine, modafinil/armodafinil, cannabis, chelated mg, melatonin, tianeptine sodium (150-300mg), L-tyrosine, 5-htp and low-dose ketamine/ACH's).