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Which of the Trichocereus cactus is more potent?

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pucka02

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
17
T. Pachanoi vs T. Bridgesii

Does anyone have information or experience in the potency of the T. Bridgesii cacti? Are they similar to the potency of the T. Pachanoi? I am able to purchase the T. Bridgesii from a nursery but not the other species. Ta.
 
Please people i have to purchase tomorrow. Need answers. Murple if your out there??? Thanks :)
 
bridgesi - around 25mg per 100grams of fresh plant.
Pachanoi - around 40mg per 100grams of fresh plant.
 
Originally posted by mll:
bridgesi - around 25mg per 100grams of fresh plant.
Pachanoi - around 40mg per 100grams of fresh plant.
Not neccesarily. This can vary pretty wildly depending on health and growing condtions (siold type/nutrient content, light, temperature, etc).
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Thanks...These Cacti are all too variable. I guess i will just have to try. More info would be cool though.
 
"around" 40mg doesn't say very much when it can easily range from 10mg to 100mg or even wider
Easily range by 100mg or even more? Where did you get this information?
 
More accurate information is in K Trouts "Sacred Cacti". The range reported there for fresh plants is 0.025 - 0.12%
 
Originally posted by mll:
More accurate information is in K Trouts "Sacred Cacti". The range reported there for fresh plants is 0.025 - 0.12%
1) It's not "more accurate". They just tested different samples of cacti.
2) That's still alot wider than your answer of "around" 40mg/100g.
In either case, the original poster needs to try his cactus and see.
[ 02 March 2003: Message edited by: gloggawogga ]
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I'd trust K Trout more than some guy in erowid.
How common do you think the most extreme examples are going to be? It's far more likely the most common values will be nearer the middle than the extremes.
 

I'd trust K Trout more than some guy in erowid.
Its not 'some guy on erowid', it's a citation to a scientific journal. Regardless of which citation you trust, both indicate a very wide range of potencies.

How common do you think the most extreme examples are going to be?
I've seen cactus potencies all over the place. The point is its possible. If the original poster takes your advice of 40mg/100g and gets cactus that is 120mg/100g, then by shooting for a dose of 400mg mescaline he'll end up doing 1200mg mescaline. To just say its 'around 40mg/100g' is misleading and potentially dangerous, even if the odds of it being that strong aren't that great, imo.
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I've seen cactus potencies all over the place
I havn't to be honest. I've taken an enormous amount of different cactus and never found anything that was so incredibly strong it made any difference to dosage levels. I've encountered lots of stuff too weak to have any effect - but never anything so strong it was likely to "overdose" me. Most san pedro sold in headshops or cactus shops are young with very little alkaloid content.
then by shooting for a dose of 400mg mescaline he'll end up doing 1200mg mescaline
If he can find and consume enough san pedro to get 1200mg mescaline he's a better man than I. And i've been consuming very old and potent cacti direct from the hills of Peru for many years and never encountered anything like an overdose.
'around 40mg/100g' is misleading and potentially dangerous
It's an indication of the potency differences between the two species - which is what he asked for.
Overdosing on mescaline from san pedro isn't something I'd be too worried about. Mescaline is the gentlest psychedelic and overdose isn't likely to be an issue. By far the main problem is consuming anywhere near enough to feel any effects whatsoever.
 
I've taken an enormous amount of different cactus and never found anything that was so incredibly strong it made any difference to dosage levels.
So now you're disregarding Trout's and other's scientific data for your anecdotal data.
It's an indication of the potency differences between the two species - which is what he asked for.
And I'm question the validity of the information you gave him.
Overdosing on mescaline from san pedro isn't something I'd be too worried about. Mescaline is the gentlest psychedelic and overdose isn't likely to be an issue.
It has nothing to do with whether its a 'gentle' psychedelic. It has do with what dosage would result in physical toxicity. LSD and shrooms are not as 'gentle' as mescaline but the dosage for physical toxicity is many times the active dose. According to Ott, the maximum safe dose for mescaline is 1 gram. Now maybe Ott is erring on the side of caution. But it still makes sense to tell the original poster of the high variability.
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I've found a list of the various alkaloids in both Trichocereus Pachanoi and Trichocereus Bridgesii
Taken from Narcotic and Hallucinogenic Cacti of the New World by Michael Smith
Trichocereus pachanoi
Trichocereus pachanoi is often know as the San Pedro cactus. Its ancient use has become altered by the integration of Catholic themes and pagan beliefs. It is still used to this date by native curanderos in Peru, Bolivia, and Ecuador. Often made into the hallucinogenic beverage "cimora" which can also include Iresine, Datura, Pedilanthus tithymaloides, and Isotoma longiflora. Frequently the Tropane containing Brugmansia aurea or B. sanguinea are added.
Alkaloids:
3-methoxytyramine
3-demethylmescaline
3-hydroxy-4,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine
3,4-dimethoxyphenethylamine
3,4-dimethoxy-5-hydroxyphenethylamine
3,5-dimethoxy-4-hydroxyphenethylamine
4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenethylamine
Anhalonidine
Anhalinine
Hordenine
Mescaline
Tyramine
Pellotine
**notes attached to pachanoi: Generally T. pachanoi, T. brigesii, and T. macrogonus are considered to contain 10x less mescaline than L. williamsii, this even though some T. pachanoi have been known to contain 2X the amount of mescaline as L. williamsii. Alkaloid content within any cactus species is variable, including within L. williamsii, this may be due to stress, genetics, soil composition, moisture, or heat and light conditions.
Trichocereus Bridgesii
3-Methoxytyramine
3,4-dimethoxyphenethylamine
3,4-dimethoxy-5-hydroxyphenethylamine
Tyramine
3,5-dimethoxy-4-hydroxyphenethylamine
Mescaline
Of course it all comes down to the individual cactus as well...it certainly can't be said that ALL pachanoi are more potent than bridgesii.
As a point of interest, following is the list of alkaloids present in Lophophora Williamsii
3,4-dihydroxy-5-methoxyphenethylamine
3,4-dimethoxyphenethylamine
3-demethylmescaline
3-hydroxy-4,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine
3-hydroxy-4-methoxyphenethylamine
4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenethylamine
5-hydroxy-3,4-dimethoxyphenethylamine
Anhalamine
Anhalidine
Anhalinine
Anhalonidine
Anhalonine
Anhalotine
Candicine
Hordenine
Isoanhalamine
Isoanhalidine
Isoanhalonidine
Isopellotine
Lophophorine
Lophotine
Mescalotam
Mescaline
Mescaline citrimid
Mescaline maleimid
Mescaline sukcineimid
Mescalinisocitrimide lactone
N,N-dimethyl-3-hydroxy-4,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine
N,N-dimethyl-4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenethylamine
N-acetyl-3-demethylmescaline
N-acetylanhalamine
N-acetylanhalonine
N-acetylmescaline
N-formyl-3-demethylmescaline
N-formyl-o-methylanhalonidine
N-formylanhalamine
N-formylanhalinine
N-formylanhalonidine
N-formylanhalonine
N-formylmescaline
N-methyl-3-hydroxy-4,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine
N-methyl-4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenethylamine
N-methylmescaline
N-methyltyramine
Pellotine
Peyoglunal
Peyoglutam
Peyonine
Peyophorine
Peyoruvic acid
Peyotine
Peyoxylic acid
Tyramine
Dopamine
Epinine
O-methylanhalonidine
...hehe ;) :D
[ 07 March 2003: Message edited by: samadhi ]
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^^^
You mentioned 3-demethylmescaline as being present in T. pachanoi, T. bridgesii and L. williamsii cacti. First, I believe you mean dimethylmescaline. Second, I do not believe L. williamsii contains this chemical.
To quote Shulgin from the entry in Pihkal on mescaline:
"N,N-Dimethylmescaline has been given the trivial name of Trichocerine as it has been found as a natural product in several cacti of the Trichocereus Genus but, interestingly, never in any Peyote variant."
 
Take it up with Michael Smith...glad to see people that are so observant on bluelight. :) It is also interesting to note that, while i have the upmost respect and admiration for Shulgin for being the pioneer that he is, even he has openly admitted that there may be some inaccuracies in his information regarding ethnobotany, due to the fact that he is not as knowledgable about plants as he is about chemistry...
:)
[ 07 March 2003: Message edited by: samadhi ]
 
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