What's causing the closed eye visuals perceived on Suboxone?

[Aetherius Rimor]

I took an 8/2 suboxone strip 2.5 hours ago, and I just experienced something I've never experienced before, and definitely did not expect to happen.

I started to have closed eye eidetic visuals of various scenes/objects. I could see trees, flowing curtains, people, in full detail, color and motion. The silhouette of a tree could be seen behind a "paper window" like the doors in Japan have which was moving with the wind, a flowing red curtain that was also apparently affected by the wind, and an unknown female briefly come from the right side of my vision and smile at me before sliding back out of my vision.

I felt like I was in another room completely. Almost like the out of body experience I've felt on a high dose of MXE. However the OOBE on MXE only gave me the "feeling" I was in another room in my peripheral vision or when I closed my eyes.

This however felt very real, and I tested it several times. I'd open my eyes and close them multiple times to see if it was really happening, and the scene would change occasionally.

There was originally a thread posted about this, but closed without much discussion here: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/570524-Closed-Eye-Visuals...-on-Suboxone

This effect Suboxone has really intrigues me and since other people have experienced it too, I know there must be something going on to trigger this. It didn't feel like a dream, or a visual your imagination creates when you think of something. It felt like it was visual information from my eyes.

What could Suboxone be doing to cause such vivid hallcuinations?

Is it the partial mu-opiod agonism causing this, or perhaps the antagonising of kappa/delta opiod receptors?

Or could it have some effect on the metabolism of something else in the body which ends up triggering these visions?

Has there been any research/reports that are worth reading about this?

 

[negrogesic]

Perhaps you should attempt to replicate the experience.....

On the surface, it sounds like some typical hypnagogia that can occur with any opioid. These types of disturbances are of course more commonly encountered with opioids that have significant activity on non-MOR sites (talwin, stadol etc). When combined with a partials comparable inability to induce sleep/narcosis like their pure counterparts, hypnagogic events are more likely. Morphine for example, has appreciable affinities for sites other than the MOR, but as it not constrained in action, the somnolence generally overtakes any related disturbances. This is admittedly a simplified explanation, but these mechanisms are all well documented.

 

[bran91]

Prob encountering a severe side effect from overdosing or interactions from other drugs.

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

Prob encountering a severe side effect from overdosing or interactions from other drugs.

I'm under the impression negrogesic's idea of it being hypnagogic might be the best explanation.

Definition I found being "The equivalent transition to wakefulness is termed the hypnopompic state. Mental phenomena that occur during this "threshold consciousness" phase include lucid dreaming, hallucinations, out of body experiences and sleep paralysis.".

I've never experienced "lucid dreaming" before, I rarely dream to begin with, but it really felt like it matched all the descriptions I've read of the phenomenon.

I was not under the influence of any other drugs, and at 225 lbs, it was 0.035 mg / lb so about the equivalent of a person weighing would be 4 mg, so I don't believe it was a "severe side effect" related to an overdose.

Hardly severe (nothing scary/worthy of concern), just unexpected and intriguing. Breathing was slower than usual, but heart rate was still around 90 bpm at 1 hour mark (normal for me resting) and BP only slightly raised compared to normal. Tend to use heart rate/bp monitor frequently whenever using substances that can affect my heart to avoid emergency situations (regardless of how safe the dose may be).

 

[Nagelfar]

I used to have very vivid hypnagogic 'opiate dreams' in the very beginning of my use during 'nods'. e.g. closed eyes with some form of REM mental activation in-between periods of wakeful awareness of them.

Though none whatsoever anymore.

 

[endotropic]

I think the hypnogogia explanation is a good one, but it might not be the only one.

Buprenorphine has high affinity for the kappa receptor, but is either a very weak agonist or an antagonist. Buprenorphine’s primary active metaolite however (nor-buprenorphine) is just as potent at kappa, and shows much stronger agonist activity.

So considering Salvia’s kappa mediated hallucinogenic effects, its within the realm of possibility that a kappa partial agonist might cause closed eye hallucinations.

When you close your eyes do the visuals develop instantly, or do they form slowly as you leave your eyes closed?

 

[Hammilton]

It's an extremely common effect of all opioids dosed at the right level. Whether suboxone causes it more than other opioids, I can't say, but it's something I've experienced with virtually every opioid I've ever used, bar fentanyl (that just put me out)

I would add that it's the effect that always had me coming back!

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

When you close your eyes do the visuals develop instantly, or do they form slowly as you leave your eyes closed?

It takes a few seconds, but then "scene" appears pretty quickly.

Did it again yesterday, and had no visuals like the first time until about 6 hours into it when I started to get really tired and was beginning to fall asleep.

This time however it felt more like a regular dream, rather than a lucid dream. The first time, I was just laying down relaxing with my eyes closed however, this time I was on the computer working the majority of the time. Around the 6 hour mark, I'd close my eyes out of exhaustion momentarily and almost instantly go into dreaming state, and when I'd realize I'd fallen asleep (some how I noticed I was sleeping when in the dream) I'd immediately open my eyes with a small rush. Hadn't finished what I was working on, so the realization I was sleeping kicked off a resistance so I could continue working.

Almost like the "micro sleeps" you can get when driving when you're dead tired, but soon as you realize what's going on, you get a huge rush and become wide awake for a few minutes. However far less intense of a rush in this situation, probably due to the fact physical safety wasn't involved.

Considering I almost never dream normally, the instant dreaming effect upon nodding off I suppose, gives me a sense of calm just thinking about it now.

Have never experienced a regular opiod nod though, so I have nothing really to compare the experience to.

Is Suboxone by itself, if done once or twice a month, addictive? It's very relaxing to be able to actually dream.

 

[Nagelfar]

Considering I almost never dream normally, the instant dreaming effect upon nodding off I suppose, gives me a sense of calm just thinking about it now.
...
Is Suboxone by itself, if done once or twice a month, addictive? It's very relaxing to be able to actually dream.

I think you've answered your question right there, seeing as addiction is little more than positive reinforcement / pleasurable sensation associated with its use. It is the most widely abused opioid in some countries, for instance, Sweden.

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

I was referring to the fact of having had dreamed, I have continued sense of calm. Very similar to the "afterglow" of having done a psychedelic recently. It would seem like that'd be more anti-addictive type sensation, by not needing to have to do it again since the calming effects persist and I have no need/desire to do it again.

However, it is good to know that there is an addictive abuse potential. I will limit it's usage to once a month at most then in order to reduce the risks. Honestly I enjoy the "after effects" of having had such vivid/calming dreams, far more than the effects itself of the drug. This last time I used it, I actually had a "pre-flight anxiety" similar to the hesitancy experienced before using DMT. The peak of the experience feels like a "dirty" opiate high, but I've nothing else I've used (at the dosages I'm willing to use), gives me the dream effects.

Thanks everyone for your responses!

 

[Nagelfar]

by not needing to have to do it again since the calming effects persist and I have no need/desire to do it again.... Honestly I enjoy the "after effects" ... The peak of the experience feels like a "dirty" opiate high

I honestly think tolerance plays a role here.

I have had discussions with beginning heroin users who didn't "get" the initial "too warm & fuzzy" overwhelming effects, but if questioned and made to think about it, really enjoyed how they felt "the day after". They got up and out of bed without hesitation, and felt just sublimated with no subjective effects that really stood out as anything other than a healthy & balanced condition of natural seeming euphoria. Eventually however, the body balances, and this effect becomes mediated to arriving sooner & sooner to actually dosing, because the body is not overwhelmed by the change and adjusts to it quicker. Withdrawal then ensues as the opposite of the calm feeling, and one becomes addicted to 'feeling normal' (i.e. calm) with it.