What is a valid 'research project'?

[Sentience]

Lets say someone is a college student....They are not in graduate school. Lets say they have an associates and are still working on their bachelors, or maybe they were studying for a degree in acupuncture (Masters/Bachelors bridge program)....Anyway, not at a University at a level where they are doing research for the college. This person on their own for their own personal curiosity decides to study the effects of various research chemicals on mice or maybe on their goldfish. Is this a valid use for research chems or do you have to get some kind of approval from some agency? We are assuming that these chems are not analogues of other drugs, but perhaps work on the same receptors like JWH chems or something like MDAI?

 

[BrokedownPalace]

Are you asking in regards to the legality of using such chemicals? Or are you asking what would be a proper "project'' if you were hypothetically doing it for University standards?

 

[Sentience]

Legally. If I want to see what happens when I feed something to my goldfish, or maybe some mice, and I am basically sloppy and keep poor records if any of my experiments.....is that a pass or not?

 

[bpayne]

I'm not sure of the legality of those chems in question but for anything scheduled a dea liscence is going to be a hell of a lot more rigid to come across. no sloppy accounting on that one and a hell of a lot more than Personal experiments needed, now maybe if you WERE to somehow be doing experiment FOR the University ..... that should be how you would proceed. Carry on Ensign.

 

[Sentience]

No, we are not talking about controlled substances or analogues. Just research chems that are legal to own and sell, but sold for research purposes only and not for human consumption.

For example....what if I want to see if JWH lengthens or shortens the lifespan of my goldfish? See if it produces tumors in hamsters? Is that a valid reason for ordering NON-scheduled research chems?

 

[bpayne]

I don't see why you would need to prove validity if their is no legal ramifications to ordering them in the first place

 

[Sentience]

I believe it is legal if its not for human consumption....But if the DEA or FDA wants to fuck with you, is that a valid enough reason? I want to see the effects of JWH on mice? Just a personal research project with no records or notes of any value? Not a controlled substance but illegal to use as a drug?

 

[Coolio]

I don't think it's legal to perform experiments on animals without a license in most jurisdictions.

 

[bpayne]

I believe you need to obtain some sort of license to conduct research on animals, Otherwise you may face animal cruelty charges.

 

[Sentience]

I don't think it's legal to perform experiments on animals without a license in most jurisdictions.

I wouldnt really do any experiments on animals. I am just curious, hypothetically speaking.


Thats good to know about the animal testing though.....What if I wanted to test to see if it would help algea grow? Or change how plants grow? What if I wanted to see if it could be used topically for hair loss?....That one might be problematic, because cosmetics might fall under different rules.


What kind of excuse is most likely to fly? Not that I wouldnt actually be interested in REALLY doing some experiments. It sounds kind of neat, but no animal cruelty.

 

[dokomo]

Experiments that involve human or animal subjects must be approved by an Institutional Review Board (IRB) at your institution of higher learning. These types of projects are typically overseen by a faculty supervisor as well.

In other words, there really isn't any excuse that will work for you based on what you're saying.

 

[Sentience]

What about plants?

 

[Outta Pocket]

Since it seems like you're pussyfooting around the real question / motive - and my apologies if I am wrong and you're really just tossing out a genuine hypothetical - YES, the feds or local authorities can definitely fuck you hard if they so wished. However, if you are messing with a personal amount this is unlikely.

Regardless of whether or not the intended purpose is legitimate research, (a)your "experiment" sounds incredibly fishy and stupid (b)You have no qualifications and no company / academic affiliation & (c)you're ordering a miniscule "personal" amount, most likely from a company that is known by the feds due to talk in the greater drug community or due to the substances they sell, or just blatantly obvious. All three of these factors are RED FLAGS.

It is a grey area and most of the time the authorities seem disinterested, but if they wanted to pursue it I'm betting my chips on them.

 

[Sentience]

You sound mildly offended by this conversation. You really shouldnt be. Everything is fine.

And why couldnt there be a legitimate study on whether cannibinoids affect the growth of plants? If they had receptors for them that would be interesting to see what they do.

And who cares if its "fishy" or an excuse? Is there any reason why you should give a shit? Unless you were a fed. Then I could understand why you would care.



And where does it say that research chemicals must be used only in a professional or academic environment? Is there a law that says that research chemicals can only be used if the study is up to academic standards? If not, then even the most half baked amateur 'expiriment' should be good enough.

 

[dokomo]

And why couldnt there be a legitimate study on whether cannibinoids affect the growth of plants? If they had receptors for them that would be interesting to see what they do.

There could be a legitimate study on that, however, legitimate studies are carried out (or at least supervised by) credentialed professionals. In addition, these studies do not amount to anything until they are peer-reviewed and published.

And who cares if its "fishy" or an excuse? Is there any reason why you should give a shit? Unless you were a fed. Then I could understand why you would care.

This is trying to answer your original question... LAW ENFORCEMENT cares if its fishy or an excuse.

And where does it say that research chemicals must be used only in a professional or academic environment? Is there a law that says that research chemicals can only be used if the study is up to academic standards? If not, then even the most half baked amateur 'expiriment' should be good enough.

The name "research chemical" should give this away. The pertinent law here is the Federal Analogue Act. Research chemicals only escape this law because they are intended for research. All that is required to be prosecuted with these chemicals is that they can demonstrate intent for human consumption, which is pretty easy when no legitimate research is being conducted.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Products sold "not for human consumption" do not mean "sold for research purposes."

 

[Sentience]

Products sold "not for human consumption" do not mean "sold for research purposes."

Exactly. Selling Mephedrone as fertilizer is no less flimsy than my personal project to see if cannibinoids affect plant growth....in fact, mine at least seems half reasonable if amateur.

I just think that people who at least have an answer to what they are doing with these are better off than those who stand there with a dumb look on their face.


I really dont think you need to break out the paperwork to prove that your study is up to academic standards unless you are doing with a controlled substance that requires FDA approval, or you are working on animals (including humans).

 

[dokomo]

Products sold "not for human consumption" do not mean "sold for research purposes."

I understand what you're both saying here, but the bottom line is that in a hypothetical prosecution for this, you'd be tried by a jury. Do you think a jury is going to honestly fall for using mephedrone as a fertilizer? Of course not. As soon as the prosecutor paints you as a junkie trying to claim a loophole in order to feed your sinister addiction, they'd convict.

I'm reminded of a quote "The three scariest words in the English language: 'Trial by jury.' Juries are made up of 12 people who are so dumb they couldn't even think up an excuse to get out of jury duty.":D

 

[Bob Loblaw]

You cannot be tried for possessing a LICIT substance (directed toward JWH etc.). I don't like where this thread is going...

 

[Outta Pocket]

You sound mildly offended by this conversation. You really shouldnt be. Everything is fine.

And why couldnt there be a legitimate study on whether cannibinoids affect the growth of plants? If they had receptors for them that would be interesting to see what they do.

You asked and I gave you the truth. If you're legitimately asking out of personal interest, then it's perfectly fine. However, I didn't get that impression. Sorry if I'm wrong.

Anyway, there could be a legitimate study, but as others have reiterated, some individual with no credentials ordering a "known" RC like mephedrone or 2c-x is going to look suspect if it so happened that LE got involved. Sure a ton of people buy and sell mephedrone and such as bath salts, fertilizer, etc. Doesn't mean that you can't be prosecuted.