Benzos Was told it's "super dangerous" to taper Klonopin while drinking at all. True or not?

[Mycophile]

So, I hate facebook. I always see shit that bums me out. I have been on Klonopin for many many years now. I'm on 2.5mgs now and need it to sleep, but initially really I have needed it for years for social anxiety. Part of me thinks now I would like to get off of it and it's been a goal of mine because my sleep quality is worse and I'm more tired than I should be, and life would be easier without it, but I like to drink and I also like Phenibut.

I was in a facebook group called "beating benzos" where everyone talks about how horrible benzos are and no one mentions any of their benefits, which also pissed me off. Someone started asking about whether or not they could drink while tapering off a benzo and was told not only that they could not drink while tapering a benzo but they couldn't drink for TWO YEARS AFTER THEY HAD FULLY TAPERED OFF THE BENZO OR THEY'D BE BACK IN WITHDRAWAL...that this is supposedly what the Ashton Manual says.

Now, i can stop drinking for 6 months, same for Phenibut. It's been 3 months now. But to tell me I'd have to go TWO YEARS without drinking if I ever wanted to get off Klonopin? That's more than I can imagine right now. Alcohol is just ever present and that would make social life REALLY hard. I'm not sure I could even do it.

So, I might like to taper to a much smaller amount, like 0.5--1.0mg where I have more energy, and DON'T have to quit drinking. Would that be possible?

And are these people right that if you taper klonopin you shouldn't drink AT ALL FOR TWO FULL YEARS? I mean, they are quoting the Ashton Manual which is supposedly the ultimate authority so.....

Then one guy said "yes, I like to drink and I'm tapering Klonopin" and so the mods shut the whole thread down IMMEDIATELY LOL. Typical.

I then left that group entirely. While Klonopin has made life harder in many ways due to worsened sleep quality and increased fatigue, it has also helped with my anxiety, and I'm tired of hearing everyone talk about benzos like they are the ultimate evil. I was even once forcibly taken off it by a quack doctor I should have sued but somehow was a medical anomaly and got ZERO withdrawal but ended up back on it due to social anxiety...but I wish i could have stopped.

So...does anyone relate to my situation? Do you think these people might be wrong? And has anyone here ever been on benzos for years due to some issue like me and found that while they may have had negative side effects that they didn't actually result in their entire life crumbling and falling apart? Thanks.

 

[negrogesic]

No its not dangerous. It does slow down the healing process (ie some sort of eventual homeostasis).

The cross tolerance between alcohol and benzos is incomplete. If you have ever been in severe benzo withdrawal and tried to drink to feel better, it doesn't really work. In fact the NMDA antagonist properties of alcohol exacerbate the dissociation associated with benzo withdrawal. It does help for around 40 minutes or so.

 

[Mycophile]

No its not dangerous. It does slow down the healing process (ie some sort of eventual homeostasis).

The cross tolerance between alcohol and benzos is incomplete. If you have ever been in severe benzo withdrawal and tried to drink to feel better, it doesn't really work. In fact the NMDA antagonist properties of alcohol exacerbate the dissociation associated with benzo withdrawal. It does help for around 40 minutes or so.

Thanks. Yeah, I just read from the Ashton Manual and I couldn't even find the quote these people were referencing and what I could find seemed to say basically "one should be careful not to replace decreasing benzo usage with increasing alcohol usage, but 2 glasses a night should be fine", and of course that's DURING withdrawal.

Then these people say it takes like 1-2 years to wean off klonopin, whereas I found her saying that my dosage or more (2.5mgs) can take between 3-6 months to taper off of, which is way easier and not even close to what they said (and I'm not even tapering now.)

She then says that even after getting off a benzo people should not be worried that a single benzo dosage for a surgery will throw them back into withdrawal, so then neither would alcohol, but these people were saying that once off benzos one shouldn't drink for at least 2 YEARS if not more, maybe even forever.

I don't know, facebook groups seem to find a way to confuse everything. Even a forum like this isn't the same for some reason. Thanks.

 

[burn out]

I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but the people on the facebook group are kind of right and Dr. Ashton actually downplays the severity of benzo withdrawal in her manual believe or not.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that drinking while tapering is "super dangerous" because it's not likely to kill you or anything, but the very fact that you are concerned about drinking shows how little you know of how bad benzo withdrawal actually is. As negrogesic said, drinking in severe benzo withdrawal doesn't really make you feel better and it can worsen your withdrawal or bring it back even up to two years off benzos like the facebook people are saying. They are also right that six months is a very fast taper and you may have to go through years of withdrawal after that. I'm not convinced that very slow tapers are the answer though, because often you still have to go through years of withdrawal after that.

Basically, if you are unlucky enough to get severe benzo withdrawal (and not everyone who takes benzos does for unknown reasons) you can pretty much kiss your whole life goodbye for a few years and whether or not you can drink alcohol will be the least of your worries.

In my case, I've been off benzos for about 12 years and I've never reacted the same way to alcohol since. For the first few years I couldn't drink because it would kick me back to an earlier stage of withdrawal. After that, I could drink again but never in the amounts I could before benzos and I would get very bad after effects from much less alcohol compared with before benzos.

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

The Ashton Manual is correct. I don't know about super dangerous (yeah, you may seize), but it sure as hell isn't good to drink after a heavy benzo habit.

 

[burn out]

Thanks. Yeah, I just read from the Ashton Manual and I couldn't even find the quote these people were referencing and what I could find seemed to say basically "one should be careful not to replace decreasing benzo usage with increasing alcohol usage, but 2 glasses a night should be fine", and of course that's DURING withdrawal.

You also have to keep in mind that Dr. Ashton was British, no American doctor that knew anything about benzo withdrawal would say it was fine to drink 2 glasses of wine a night in withdrawal LOL. Many doctor's here would tell a completely healthy person they were drinking too much if they drank 2 glasses of wine a night. The brits are in a different class when it comes to stuff like this, for example, I've heard it's normal in England for people to go out every weekend and take 6 or 7 E pills whereas here people say you should only take MDMA once a year or something and you have stories of people suffering long term comedowns from just going overboard one single weekend.

 

[burn out]

I don't know, facebook groups seem to find a way to confuse everything. Even a forum like this isn't the same for some reason. Thanks.

It's confusing because you get so many different opinions and since you don't know the people personally, you have no idea which opinions to give more weight to. These groups tend to attract people who are messed up in the head and then group think takes over and they can develop a cult like atmosphere.

I can give you the straight truth regarding benzos though, the good and the bad. The bad news is that most of what people say online about how bad benzos are is true and they absolutely can cause a horrendous mutli year long withdrawal that you may never recover from completely.

The good news is that doesn't happen to everyone and everyone responds to withdrawal in their own way. Some people can drink afterwards, other's can't. So don't listen to anyone being dogmatic about what you can and can't do (you'll have to find that out for yourself) but also don't dismiss what they are saying as rubbish because chances are that at least some people are experiencing it even though your reaction may differ.

 

[Mycophile]

I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but the people on the facebook group are kind of right and Dr. Ashton actually downplays the severity of benzo withdrawal in her manual believe or not.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that drinking while tapering is "super dangerous" because it's not likely to kill you or anything, but the very fact that you are concerned about drinking shows how little you know of how bad benzo withdrawal actually is. As negrogesic said, drinking in severe benzo withdrawal doesn't really make you feel better and it can worsen your withdrawal or bring it back even up to two years off benzos like the facebook people are saying. They are also right that six months is a very fast taper and you may have to go through years of withdrawal after that. I'm not convinced that very slow tapers are the answer though, because often you still have to go through years of withdrawal after that.

Basically, if you are unlucky enough to get severe benzo withdrawal (and not everyone who takes benzos does for unknown reasons) you can pretty much kiss your whole life goodbye for a few years and whether or not you can drink alcohol will be the least of your worries.

In my case, I've been off benzos for about 12 years and I've never reacted the same way to alcohol since. For the first few years I couldn't drink because it would kick me back to an earlier stage of withdrawal. After that, I could drink again but never in the amounts I could before benzos and I would get very bad after effects from much less alcohol compared with before benzos.

I'm not sure I believe you, and Necrogesic doesn't, so yeah...I mean I believe what happened to you, but it didn't happen to me when i was taken off benzos once, so I don't necessarily believe it's always like that, and also, i don't see why 2 years should be necessary when the Manual itself says 6 months for my dose, and I could certainly avoid alcohol for 6 months or even 9, but not 2 YEARS. That's just not fair.

Also, what about if i didn't COMPLETELY get off benzos, but just tapered down to a very small amount that would give me fewer side effects, like 0.5mgs. Would any of these concerns over drinking be appropriate then, since i'd still be on the Klonopin? Cause really, I just want at the very least to only be on a very small dose so I don't get the heavy fatigue I get on my larger dose.

For me, I was once taken off Klonopin FAR too abruptly and somehow got ZERO benzo withdrawal. Don't know how or why, and I wish I could have stayed off but I had anxiety (because I have anxiety, not as a WD symptom, so I got back on).

I was reading the Asthon Manual last night that 6 months is the max length for a 3mg Klonopin habit and mine is 2.5mgs, so where are you getting this idea that it would take 2 years? Where does that number come from?

Also, she says if you are off your benzos you shouldn't be concerned that if you need benzos for a surgery for example, that they will throw you back in withdrawal, so why would alcohol?

Also, are you saying that if you react differently and don't get super bad benzo withdrawal like i didn't that the case could be different?

Because I also read in her manual that she says in the foreward "there is no ONE WAY to taper benzos, this is not a strict bible, and no 2 people react the same way, so the taper is for the patient to decide with the doctor."

So I don't know where you are getting this "2 year" number from, but I don't believe it would happen to me. It didn't happen last time.

 

[Mycophile]

The Ashton Manual is correct. I don't know about super dangerous (yeah, you may seize), but it sure as hell isn't good to drink after a heavy benzo habit.

But HOW LONG AFTER?

I think 2 years is bullshit, and also, that's not even really what the Ashton Manual does say. See my other post for what it really says. It seems to suggest that once you are off your benzos and withdrawal is over that you should generally be able to go back to life as usual. She doesn't recommend (as no doctor would) that you start chronically binge drinking, but she says that some alcohol (like 2 glasses of wine) is ok even while in withdrawal, and that after withdrawal no one should be concerned that if they need a benzo injection for surgery that it will throw them back in withdrawal, so why would alcohol then?

I was quickly and abruptly taken off Klonopin once and it was criminal how they did it, but I got lucky and had ZERO withdrawal, and drank during that period while off benzos at times, but due to my anxiety disorder needed to get back on.

The Manual and Dr.Ashton say in the foreward that the taper schedule and how to do things should be up to the patient first and foremost, and the doctor, that no 2 people are different. But I totally believe if they say that a 6 month taper works for 3mgs that I could do it in the same time frame off 2.5 and I could totally not drink for 6 months if necessary, hell, I could avoid drinking for 9 months, but it's when we get to a year or more that I'm saying no way, and I don't see any reason to believe that it would necessarily be necessary for me personally to go years without drinking if I was ever to taper off klonopin, seeing as the one time i was taken off that's not what I did, and I didn't go into withdrawal. Everyone is different.

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

It seems to suggest that once you are off your benzos and withdrawal is over that you should generally be able to go back to life as usual.

This sounds reasonable and full of common sense. There are such a thing as PAWS but this is not what this is about, I know.
Ya off the benzos? Been off for a while? It is possible (imo/e) that a balance can be found.

 

[Mycophile]

It's confusing because you get so many different opinions and since you don't know the people personally, you have no idea which opinions to give more weight to. These groups tend to attract people who are messed up in the head and then group think takes over and they can develop a cult like atmosphere.

I can give you the straight truth regarding benzos though, the good and the bad. The bad news is that most of what people say online about how bad benzos are is true and they absolutely can cause a horrendous mutli year long withdrawal that you may never recover from completely.

The good news is that doesn't happen to everyone and everyone responds to withdrawal in their own way. Some people can drink afterwards, other's can't. So don't listen to anyone being dogmatic about what you can and can't do (you'll have to find that out for yourself) but also don't dismiss what they are saying as rubbish because chances are that at least some people are experiencing it even though your reaction may differ.

Well, like i said, i was abruptly taken off my Klonopin once in a way that was criminal and should have had the Dr. lose his license and somehow was some kind of medical anomaly and got ZERO withdrawal and i have no idea how. I wish i hadn't gotten back on after 9 months off, but my anxiety disorder, the reason i needed it in the first place, came back.

But I drank alcohol in the interim, and nothing bad ever happened, and i just noticed that I no longer had the rebound anxiety after drinking which was great. I SO wish I could have stayed off the Klonopin, but my anxiety disorder came back. I wish I had taken that time to quit caffeine too as it gives me anxiety and then maybe I wouldn't have needed to get back on but i didn't realize at the moment that it would have been a good idea.

She also says that if you are injected with a benzo for surgery while or right after your taper not to fear that it will throw you back in withdrawal, so i see no reason to believe alcohol would.

I am still a bit skeptical about what you are saying about "most of the things people say online about benzos are true" based on my own personal experience. Most of what people say, and it's this forum too in the past, seem to suggest that everyone's life is ruined by benzos if they are on them for any length of time, and that no one should EVER be on them more than 12 weeks and that they are straight up poison. But they don't take into account how much they have helped people like me.

But at least you agree with me that every individual reacts differently and that this is really something to be discussed and figured out one on one between the doctor and patient and not something internet forums can properly instruct you about. When dealing with a good doctor who knows your reactions and your history and can adjust things to your situation then a lot of the confusion tends to fall away. Plus, from what I hear IF somehow I actually DID have crippling benzo withdrawal then it's true alcohol would be the least of my concerns and I'd just be doing whatever I could to get through life, which for some odd reason comforts yet at the same time terrifies me LOL...BUT....that did NOT happen last time. In fact, I had ZERO withdrawal even after YEARS on my Klonopin. I hope if i ever get off the Klonopin again that history repeats itself...

 

[Mycophile]

This sounds reasonable and full of common sense. There are such a thing as PAWS but this is not what this is about, I know.
Ya off the benzos? Been off for a while? It is possible (imo/e) that a balance can be found.

But then there's this talk of "2 years" before that point happens, even though the Ashton Manual itself says 3-6 months for a taper off of 3mgs of Klonopin (I'm on 2.5mgs) and yet I have not heard where anyone has gotten the 2 years number from.

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

seem to suggest that everyone's life is ruined by benzos if they are on them for any length of time

Abuse of benzodiazepines and alcohol has put me in the darkest places I have experienced in over half a century. Heavy use and abuse. Decades of it.
A time and place for everything. I had to take a break from irl with some benzos recently as shit is bout to splode. I am tapering off at this time and hate to see it go but....
I started getting "my" life back after dropping benzos and opiates ~3 years ago. Quotations cause I am not where I wanna be... soooo far away from what I consider irl.
Balance. Know when its safe and when its not... or as needed like all other meds. It def seems sustainable to me so far.
I have many freedoms available but noways to reach them... yet.
Always

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

But then there's this talk of "2 years" before that point happens,

Everyone knows that we all deal with everything differently so....
It was like a month after going through all the WDs from benzos that i ate a bar or two. Never felt anything wd like afterwards cept maybe "damn wish i could take a few more" lol.
My bad if I am not seeing the question(s) I am a little slower than usual but trying.

 

[Mycophile]

Abuse of benzodiazepines and alcohol has put me in the darkest places I have experienced in over half a century. Heavy use and abuse. Decades of it.
A time and place for everything. I had to take a break from irl with some benzos recently as shit is bout to splode. I am tapering off at this time and hate to see it go but....
I started getting "my" life back after dropping benzos and opiates ~3 years ago. Quotations cause I am not where I wanna be... soooo far away from what I consider irl.
Balance. Know when its safe and when its not... or as needed like all other meds. It def seems sustainable to me so far.
I have many freedoms available but noways to reach them... yet.
Always

I'm sorry to hear about your experience.

Mine is not the same as i've never "abused" my Klonopin because i can't because it just doesn't have that effect on me. It doesn't get me high, it's only for anxiety and for sleep, nothing else.

Alcohol is different, but I can go months without drinking. It's been over a month now. Then I will start having fun again and may go on small benders, but usually keep them short and it's not days in a row because I can't drink when hungover. Then I get myself back together again and stop for a while.

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

Then I get myself back together again and stop for a while.

There ya have it, then. Ya got some influence over being influenced.
Seems like you got this if ya have these abilities.
If a mf can do his/her doc and walk away at will not much more I could ask for. I tried the extremes of abuse and being clean and neither was my "fit" so I drink maybe a coupla times a year and take breaks when the situation allows it.
Maybe I should go back and read all this again but sounds like you have it "figured out" to me....

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

I hate facebook.

Love the intro gotta say. lol

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

But HOW LONG AFTER?

I think 2 years is bullshit, and also, that's not even really what the Ashton Manual does say. See my other post for what it really says. It seems to suggest that once you are off your benzos and withdrawal is over that you should generally be able to go back to life as usual. She doesn't recommend (as no doctor would) that you start chronically binge drinking, but she says that some alcohol (like 2 glasses of wine) is ok even while in withdrawal, and that after withdrawal no one should be concerned that if they need a benzo injection for surgery that it will throw them back in withdrawal, so why would alcohol then?

I was quickly and abruptly taken off Klonopin once and it was criminal how they did it, but I got lucky and had ZERO withdrawal, and drank during that period while off benzos at times, but due to my anxiety disorder needed to get back on.

The Manual and Dr.Ashton say in the foreward that the taper schedule and how to do things should be up to the patient first and foremost, and the doctor, that no 2 people are different. But I totally believe if they say that a 6 month taper works for 3mgs that I could do it in the same time frame off 2.5 and I could totally not drink for 6 months if necessary, hell, I could avoid drinking for 9 months, but it's when we get to a year or more that I'm saying no way, and I don't see any reason to believe that it would necessarily be necessary for me personally to go years without drinking if I was ever to taper off klonopin, seeing as the one time i was taken off that's not what I did, and I didn't go into withdrawal. Everyone is different.

Okay, I see what you mean. Sorry, I misunderstood.

For how long were you on benzos? I saw "many, many years."

Well, I didn't drink for about 6 months when I got off benzos, and when I did drink, I had a three day hangover feeling absolutely miserable.
I'm glad you had zero withdrawal. It's crazy how many doctors are fucking quacks when it comes to benzo-tapering.
Seeing as you didn't experience withdrawal, you might not be as sensitive as me. Everyone is different indeed.
I didn't go back into WD from drinking, but it wasn't just a hangover.
I would try not to drink for at least six months, or maybe more. But you could of course try earlier, though I personally wouldn't risk it.

Two years is a long time, sure, but if you've been on benzos for say decade or more, it wouldn't surprise me if 2 years is the average recovery time before being able to drink again. Alcohol has never been the same for me after benzos, and I wasn't on them many years.

I hope it goes alright. Take it easy.

 

[Mycophile]

Okay, I see what you mean. Sorry, I misunderstood.

For how long were you on benzos? I saw "many, many years."

Well, I didn't drink for about 6 months when I got off benzos, and when I did drink, I had a three day hangover feeling absolutely miserable.
I'm glad you had zero withdrawal. It's crazy how many doctors are fucking quacks when it comes to benzo-tapering.
Seeing as you didn't experience withdrawal, you might not be as sensitive as me. Everyone is different indeed.
I didn't go back into WD from drinking, but it wasn't just a hangover.
I would try not to drink for at least six months, or maybe more. But you could of course try earlier, though I personally wouldn't risk it.

Two years is a long time, sure, but if you've been on benzos for say decade or more, it wouldn't surprise me if 2 years is the average recovery time before being able to drink again. Alcohol has never been the same for me after benzos, and I wasn't on them many years.

I hope it goes alright. Take it easy.

I was and have been on benzos for decades, but I was told by a doctor at the facility i went to (not sure if she is right or not though depending on what the other doctor said...) that amount of time on them is unimportant past a certain point (say like, a year), only dosage, that once you are truly dependent it could be 1 year or 10 years it doesn't matter.

I'm 41 and first got on Klonopin at 23 and I was 34 when I was abruptly (and criminally...) taken off them. I experienced ZERO withdrawal somehow and was off them for 9 months before my anxiety came back and I needed them again, but I think if i had used the time to quit coffee, which so greatly exacerbates my anxiety, that i could have stayed off..MAYBE. So now I've been back on for 7 years.

I don't like even telling most people that because then most of them are like "OH MY GOD YOUR BRAIN IS FUCKED NOW!! You are totally going to never ever be normal again and you will become a vegetable if tapered off!!" etc etc....which they do NOT know is true or not as they aren't doctors.

But I am actually pretty good at going for several months without any kind of alcohol or drugs IF i really want to, like 3 months is usually pretty easy, 6 is a challenge but totally doable...but once we get past that point it starts to become a bit much and I want to indulge and it's obviously harder if I am around people drinking and doing stuff.

I would try not to drink for 6 months and I could easily do that...but 2 YEARS??!! Not so sure that's necessary and I don't want to do that.

 

[Mycophile]

There ya have it, then. Ya got some influence over being influenced.
Seems like you got this if ya have these abilities.
If a mf can do his/her doc and walk away at will not much more I could ask for. I tried the extremes of abuse and being clean and neither was my "fit" so I drink maybe a coupla times a year and take breaks when the situation allows it.
Maybe I should go back and read all this again but sounds like you have it "figured out" to me....

I wouldn't go so far or be so bold as to say I have it "figured out", I just can't completely abstain from all drugs, nor do I want to be a complete addict getting fucked up all the time, and I can't really moderate, so I just choose to have "short periods of indulgence"and then return to abstaining again for as long as possible before getting fucked up again.

I mean take right now...I just slipped up for the first time in 38 days. I just took 3,200mgs of Phenibut and will almost certainly get drunk with it tonight as I usually can't resist booze when on Phenibut. But the last time I drank (and I took Phenibut also that time) was 38 days ago, and before that it was probably a couple months. It's been over 3 months without Kratom which I love also.

But back between early May and mid June I was drinking a fair amount and using Kratom a fair amount and some Phenibut...would stop a few days but then go back etc till I pulled together and stopped for real.

It's easier for me because I have Naltrexone which I use to force myself into chemical abstainence as while it doesn't COMPLETELY block alcohol it makes it fairly unenjoyable and a waste of time and COMPLETELY blocks Kratom, and since those are my main drugs of choice I can use that to help. Problem is you can't take Naltrexone if you have any Kratom in your system at all or you could get precipitated withdrawal, so if I am indulging in Kratom I have to use willpower to make it about 4-5 days without taking Kratom before i can start taking the Naltrexone again which will then block it.

That's the one problem with my way of doing things, because during those few days while off my Naltrexone I may start drinking again each night and then keep taking the Kratom and then it's longer before i can go back on the Naltrexone etc......but once back on, I'm good to go. So I just skipped my Naltrexone today and Phenibut and alcohol will work but Kratom still won't, so I'll just take the Naltrexone again tomorrow. It's periods of Kratom use that become problematic overall because I'm not on the Naltrexone, and then I have practices like intermittent fasting which I like to follow and I don't like to fuck that up. So yeah, I have some strategies that help, but I'm not superman or anything.