Stimulants Using alpha-blockers/vasodilators with meth/cocaine?

[ChickenBrah]

(I have little knowledge in this kind of stuff so bare with me)

Both methamphetamine and cocaine are known to elevate your heart rate and blood pressure all the while constricting blood vessels and arteries (vasoconstriction) which can bring on a myriad of cardiovascular issues. From my understanding, this is because the epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noradrenaline) released with dopamine by your brain put the body in fight or flight mode and pushes the heart into overdrive. They also cause the narrowing of blood vessels around your heart and body. Weak blood flow coupled with a sped up heart is a recipe for heart failure, heart attack, organ failure, etc. So I thought why not take hypertension medication? Beta-blockers sounded like the perfect solution, but :

Beta blockers must not be used in the treatment of cocaine, amphetamine, or other alpha-adrenergic stimulant overdose. The blockade of only beta receptors increases hypertension, reduces coronary blood flow, left ventricular function, and cardiac output and tissue perfusion by means of leaving the alpha-adrenergic system stimulation unopposed.[27] The appropriate antihypertensive drugs to administer during hypertensive crisis resulting from stimulant abuse are vasodilators such as nitroglycerin, diuretics such as furosemide and alpha blockers such as phentolamine.

So I did a quick research on alpha blockers (α-blockers) and found they are antagonists of adrenergic receptors α1 & α2, which are the same receptors through which adrenaline and noradrenaline cause vasoconstriction of arteries and veins. Alpha blockers like Prazosin work to lower blood pressure by relaxing and widening blood vessels so blood can flow more easily. Using these with meth or coke might help to relieve vasoconstriction and hypertension. Better blood flow means less cardiovascular risk, although other issues like rapid and/or irregular heart rate still persist.

So I'd like to if any of you guys ever tried alpha-blockers or other vasodilators with your meth or coke use? Can anyone maybe hypothesize how using them might cause adverse effects?

Thank you

 

[blight12]

I went though a long meth crazed review of tons of info on the forums on this. Some feedback.

1. Consider why the construction occurs in the first place. There could be a good reason, EG: When this happens your large arteries near the heart actually dilate making it easier for the heart to function (confirm this yourself)

2. Taking dilation meds during the constriction puts dangerous strain on the heart due to opposing effects, dont do it

3. This is very annoying and alarming symptom is a normal side effect of stims and is reasonably safe (as can be considering what you are doing in the first place)

4. Always force yourself to eat when you normally would, easier said then done though

5. Vitamins, chelated magnesium makes a huge difference.

6. Consider dilators BEFORE starting stim, much safer then during strong constriction symptoms

7. Warm bath can alleviate symptoms

8. Movement helps to prevent bad symptoms in the first place.

9. Dehydration, drink liquids, OJ is my choice.

10. Avoid smoking cigs which is a constrictor, this has noticeably made things worse for me.

11. Alcohol can help initially but then later it has constriction effects. Though this has seemed to help the most while during a session with bad symptoms, not recommended though.

I always get this shit about 2-3 days in without fail and food/liquids, magnesium and vitamins alone prevented this on other times consistently.

 

[THC2LSD]

^That shit's the truth.

I was wondering about clonidine and other similar alpha-2-adrenagenic drugs. Dexmedetomidine has shown potential in rats to reduce OD symptoms, maybe more common A-2-A drugs might also work. Not sure, it's an adrenaline agonist that lowers blood pressure, the others might not have the same properties.

I think the recommended drug for cardiovascular symptoms is phentolamine, an alpha-blocker. However generally they use thorazine or diazepam, it treats the mind and heart effects.

Sometimes cocaine is cut with diltiazem, a calcium channel blocker. It's small amounts so it kind of a mystery, but I think it's to cover up shitty coke.

That would be cool if alkyl nitrites could lower blood pressure for uppers, though I think it would make an arrhythmia worse, not sure.

 

[Coraline]

Alpha blockers for ADD med S/E management
Alpha Blockers
Taking an alpha blocker such as clonidine or guanfacine for adult ADD can be helpful in calming the anticipatory anxiety that fuels poor impulse control and other symptoms. These types of medications are more commonly used in children than adults. In adults, alpha blockers can provide adequate symptom management when used in combination with other drugs such as stimulants.

 

[Coraline]

Beta blockers act on alpha recieptors as well and they increase the vaso construction.

Alpha blockers dilate blood vessels lowering blood pressure.

 

[ChickenBrah]

Thanks for the tips!

But how does taking dilation meds while constriction occrus put more strain on the heart? If anything it should relieve a little bit of strain on the heart because it's the constriction + elevated heart rate that poses a danger because the heart and organs won't be getting enough needed oxygen, right? Dilating blood vessels will allow better blow flow, no?

 

[bugasman]

Hey fellows,

I'm ADHD and current use Vyvanse (lisdexamfetamine) 30mg + 0.115mg (2x) Clonazepam. I found that 0.25 mg (twice daily) of Hydergine (potent vasodilator, mixed DA/SE agonism/antagonism, antioxidant, benefits on glucose metabolism...) smooths the peripheral nervous feeling of dexamphetamine. The great benefit of Hydergine is the nootropic and mood effects it gives. It destroys depression. Higher doses of ergoloids can induce fatigue, drowsiness because of anti-adrenergic properties, hypersexuality and gambling urges due DA agonism (Yeah I felt that effect when using 6mg of Hyder, compulsion to gamble and fuck). This low dose of Hyder I'm using don't cancel the increased heart rate of dex (If I use more Hydergine, like +2mg daily I'm sure that my HR will drop). Hyder balances the rollercoaster mood that amphetamine induces, making it a more fun ride.

My only worry, can this combo of Hydergine (vasodilator) plus Amphetamine be harmful?

 

[jambabomba]

OP, correct me if I'm wrong but if I remember correctly I recently read somewhere (a study) that beta-blockers aren't as contraindicated as they ones thought are. Even they might also rise blood pressure usually inhibiting beta-adrenergic stimulation is so strong that overall blood pressure will lower. Sometimes it might have been that cocaine overdose with ex. propranolol only treatment caused increase in BP. Cocaine was the most worries causing substance but not amphetamine? Maybe metamphetamine is a different story.

Edit: And I was in a belief that beta-adrenergic antagonist treatment with overdoses was only contraindicated with cocaine because of cocaine's unique directly effects on heart wich other substanced doesn't have. So is there really a reason not to treat ex. amphetamine overdose with propranolol?

 

[rolls_]

Can we get some more discussion on this topic?

I never understood why people said taking uppers and downers (eg something that stimulates adrenaline, and then something that blocks it) is bad as it causes strain, via what mechanism does it cause strain? Surely the upper stimulating adrenaline would cause strain, but then taking an alpha blocker like clonidine would reduce the strain via cancelling it out?

I normally take clonidine when taking mephedrone to reduce the high blood pressure, high heart rate and anxiety and find it works very well, I however would like to confirm what via mechanism (if it exists) that the upper + downer causes more strain than just the upper on its own as I have never gotten a scientific answer about this.

Thanks.

 

[sekio]

Considering people use alpha blockers as a rescue treatment for amphetamine overdose, I'd say you're correct that they'd actually prevent strain. As far as I know that's coming from people confusing alpha with beta blockers.

Alpha-adrenergic blocking drugs are agonists at autoreceptors which are basically sensors that determine how much norepinephrine/adrenaline is being released. Because they activate this receptor they make the body think "whoa there's too much NE/AD" and therefore it reduces its baseline release rate of those 2 stimulating neurotransmitters.

You should be careful using alpha blockers because they can cause large drops in blood pressure and as a result, fainting, dizziness, nausea, etc. They can also be expected to reduce the stimulating effects of any sort of drug you're taking. Norepinephrine release plays a major role in MDMA's percieved effects, for instance.

 

[Kilfer]

Can't say about coke but for amphetamine-type and all their derivatives that cause vasoconstriction I have achived best results with concomitant use of a low dose of a medium-acting benzo, the archetype being temazepam 15mg (10mg in Europe), diazepam 5g or 10g (depending on stim dose), bromazepam 6g, lorazepam 1g. 3 Xaxax not recommended unless no other choice, duration of action is too short and onset speeds up the heart. Etizolam's effects on GABA-a mediation not yet properly assessed for recommendation although IN THEORY it should work, as well as non-benzo GABA-a agonists but neither are mentioned in the source which forum rules prevent me from posting (hint). One thing that the source clearly mentions however is so important that I must recopy from memory:

In addition to GABA, benzodiazepines inhibit the reuptake of a nucleoside chemichal called Adenosine, which serves as an inhibitory chemical mentioned above. It also serves as a coronary vasodilator, allowing the cardiac muscle to relax and dilating cardiac arteries.

So, Gentlemen, it would appear that a systematic vasodilator does exist. Systematic in the sense that no paradoxical coronary vasoconstriction is triggered. Is this the safer alternative, the Holy Grail of stim abusers? Common sense would suggest a cautious (as per usual) "quite likely, yes".