Transdermal selegiline (emsam) + l-Phenylalanine

[ozric]

I've seen a lot of posts regarding the combination of oral selegiline in the 5-10 mg dose range with l-Phenylalanine for nootropic effects. I am currently on 9 mg emsam and was planning to add l-Phenylalanine to augment it. However, after reading this experience report on erowid http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=73722 I am very worried about doing so. At 9 mg transdermal I'm definately into MAO-A levels. I theorize that the problem which occured resulted from an influx of norepinephrine from the phenylalanine which then could not be broken down due to MAO-A inhibition, and that if I were to decrease my dosage to 6 mg (which SHOULD be selective for MAO-B) and wait 2 weeks for the MAO-A inhibition to reverse itself, the combination would then be safe. At that point it should be no different from any of the combinations of oral selegiline and phenylalinine as I've seen mentioned elsewhere around the forums, at least that's how I see it. Is there any reason this would still be unsafe?

 

[late show wdl]

I do not think that norepinephrine is the problem. I think the problem is probably extremely overwhelmed dopaminergic transmission, keeping postsynaptic dopamine neurons in a constant state of activation or something similar. And this does not only mean the dopamine neurons involved in euphoria but ones in other areas of the brain, those affecting movement and coordination. Note that in the beginning, the author says he felt "profound euphoria".

 

[WSB15]

Contrary to popular belief, Emsam at 6mg/24hr is not MAO-B selective at all. Transdermal selegeline is WAY more bioavailable (74% vs. 4%).

See Figure 2 (under Pharmacokinetics): http://www.drugs.com/pro/emsam.html

Even if it was MAO-B selective, this isn't a good idea. L-Phenylalanine is going to increase DA, and selegeline is impairing your brain's ability to clean it up. I've read a few reports of combined MAOIs (esp. selegeline) with (D)L-PA, PEA, and L-Tyrosine. Some have reported an amphetamine-like effect, others have had hypertensive crises, and I read at least one report of paranoid delusions/hallucinations from it. I think the risks are very very high with very little possible benefit. If you're going to do it, take a tiny dose of L-PA. Monitor your blood pressure & heart rate (you can get a monitor to do both for $15 at CVS). Emsam and MAOIs are good antidepressants...but not very forgiving in terms of combining with other drugs. That Erowid report should scare the shit out of you...lots of signs of potential neurotoxicity there. Notice the cute little skull I put at the top of this post? Yeah, that's there for a reason. If I were you I'd look for other ways to catch a buzz.

 

[ozric]

Yeah I didn't realize how much more selegiline is absorbed transdermally. Assuming that absorbtion rates are 10-20x higher transdermally, and I were to want to use a dose equivalent to 10 mg oral (max cited in that study and around the BL boards) I would need to cut off between 1/12 and 1/6 of a 6 mg patch. At that level I would be within MAO-B levels, assuming my math is correct. Regarding the erowid report, yeah, he was taking 1500 mg, which is higher than both the study cites (250 mg) and other threads around BL cite (500-1000 mg), so I think that certainly contributed, but the main factor as far as I see it now is the much higher level of both MAO-B and A inhibition seen with transdermal administration. I am curious about taking an extremely small amount of l-Phenylalanine on my current dose of 9 mg (say 10-50 mg l-phenylalanine) and seeing how that works. I'm still worried about the safety of such a combination though. It should be noted I'm both trying to treat ADD and severe depression, and not just looking for some buzz. For the sake of comparison, does anyone know how much phenylalanine is in a 12 oz diet coke?

 

[nuke]

About 74mg.

 

[WSB15]

I would need to cut off between 1/12 and 1/6 of a 6 mg patch. At that level I would be within MAO-B levels, assuming my math is correct.

Your math is right, just keep in mind that selegeline is an irreversible MAOI, which means that it takes 2 weeks or so for your body to produce MAO. So if you were taking 9mg, and the next day you took a small portion of a patch, there'd be little difference in MAO inhibition (MAO-A would still be inhibited).

I think a tiny amount of Phenylanine (up to 100mg) would probably be safe, but everyone's brain is different. Some people even take MAOI & Amphetamine combos Rx'd by a doctor. If you're just trying to treat ADD while on MAOI, that's probably safer than trying to get a super-dopaminergic high on it. I have both ADD and Depression, too. I took Emsam and it lifted my mood quite nicely, but didn't do shit for my ADD. So now I'm just taking Dexedrine, no more Emsam. Unless I can find a doc willing to try small amounts of dexedrine with Emsam (unlikely), I'm probably going to try Parnate but I don't think it'll do much for ADD either. Let me know if this combo works for you.

 

[Hammilton]

Using phenethylamine is probably safer. It works faster and it's easier to find the right dose. With Phenylalanine it's easy to overestimate how much you need. That said, when I overdosed, I used PEA.

 

[fastandbulbous]

Can't see how this works as dopamine (& noradrenaline) are competative inhibitors of tyrosine hydroxylase so any increase in catecholamine levels will inhibit the production of more (it's the rate limiting step in dopamine/noradrenaline biosynthesis)

 

[hamhurricane]

some people suggest that D,L-Phenylalanine is inactive when used w/ selegiline i can testify that it is highly active (although i was consuming some ungodly amount - like a gram or more (i cant remember the exact dose so please look it up)) i found it really awful feeling though - a pulse of sweaty manic energy followed by terrible mental/physical torpor.

 

[ebola?]

one datum:

while on selegiline, doses of l-phenylalanine up to a gram did nothing (yes, i worked up to that level quite carefully), while beta-phenethylamine totally worked.