Traditional means of maintaining sobriety VS Finding a new way DISCUSSION

[bcfly7x7]

Hey all,

So before I start this please know that this is a discussion not an attack or debate thread. I/we would like to get opinions from all parties, especially those that have relapsed. If you feel comfortable it would be great to know if you stayed sober and what worked for you or if you did relapse who many times and why?

So why am I posting and asking this? Well here it is. While going through this, I find myself asking is the current system after IP rehab the best or for that matter the only way to maintain sobriety. It seems like every group from NA to AA to CA and all the others are all based on the "big book". It doesnt even change with IOP or OP, the guidelines are basically all the same with slight modifications for whatever group you're in. As humans we learn to adapt and adjust, in this instance we rely on a book written about 100 years ago. Everyone is different, so why only one system? At that, why such an antiquated one? Furthermore, as addicts we know everything there is to know about drugs, wd, detox, rehab, groups and trying to live sober, so why do we seek others to tell us what to do that haven't been there?

I was amazed to see that about 60% of people relapse.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publicatio...to-those-other-well-characterized-chronic-ill

This shows that the majority of the time the current process isn't working. I don't want to see people that work so hard to get clean to see 6/10 of you/me/us fail.

With modern science finding out new things every day, is there a better way to help more of us stay sober? If the current system works for you, please tell us why it works for you. If it doesn't, please tell us why it isn't working for you. What would help you stay sober IYO? Or if you found a way to stay sober and didn't use traditional methods, how did that work for you?

The idea is to find a better way then the current system, call it a hybrid of sorts. Here is another article about the current state of the system.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/06/AR2010080602660.html

Why if you relapse does AA or NA say it's not them or their system, but it's you? Maybe it is you, but maybe, just maybe, it's because we have failed to adapt from 100 years ago? So why not try something else, try and find a new way?

I know there are many that truly believe in the status quo, and thats great if it works for you. I hope to not crush the current system, but modify it for the over 60% that fail over and over again. Please help us out by discussing this in a kind and positive manner. The point is to help more, create a better updated model, to save familys and lives.

Thank you for all and any input. We the addicts, who know us best might be able to do this, imagine that, a bunch of addicts change the status quo.

Much respect,

Bob

 

[neversickanymore]

Great Thread.. lets all please try and keep this from turning into a fellowship Vs. none fellowship barrage.. there is thread for that crazy battle and this is does not happen to be it.

 

[neversickanymore]

I will throw a one out there.. traditional addiction treatment often stresses the formation of a strong repeated pattern that needs to be developed in a recovering persons lives.

My ideas around this

Pro: less stress
Con: everything else, which is considerable.

 

[bcfly7x7]

Thanks for the reply NSA,

I'll throw my two cents in here, I think the entire system needs to be revamped. Im not happy feeling like there is a monopoly on the business of rehab and after care by the basic one guideline system.

What if you're not religious, does that mean your doom.to failure? I reject that on principal. I personally do believe in a higher power, but why make that the foundation of the system?

Well, IMO, when the big book was written and the 12 steps defined, there was more belief in a higher power. Now a days we have many that don't believe in a higher power. I think this might be a major factor for some why they might not attend and in relation will relapse.

So.why force one of acceptance? If you are there to be a help to all, then why discriminate against a group of people? Why force some to lie to themselves right after a stint in rehab? How is this a great new beginning, to start it off by lying to your self?

Also what is the point to the so called 90/90? Ok so you want an addict to goto a meeting everyday for 90 days or go to more than one a day maybe two a day, just get 90 in 90 days. So lets slam down the throat of a recent recovering addict he/she needs this to maintain sobriety. I guess the theory here is it takes 90 days to either make or break a habit. So then what, after 90 days and meetings your fine now. Really? It's so archaic and I think many addicts are miss lead into thinking if they complete this 90 days you're going to make it, um no, this only serves to provide motivation for a limited amount of time.

I think we need to revamp the whole 12 step process, come up with new more modern 12 step or maybe only 10 steps or maybe none at all. Either way it needs to be changed.

I think we need to provide a way to not feel like you're being judged. I'd love to hear your opinion on this.

Bob

 

[straightrazor]

Well, all I can say is I never really got anything from the mainstream recovery system in place. If they want to be useful to the many people who are currently turned off by the current system some type of paradigm shift must occur in the industry. I don't have any real specific ideas as I can only speak for what helped me and what hasn't, I don't think there is one cure-all plan that encompasses most addicts. Personally what has helped me is studying the science of addiction and what has happened to the brain, mindfulness, CBT, yoga, meditation, and also working on cleaning up my nutrition. I never really took care of my body during active addiction so now I need to try to focus on my physical health just as much as working on identifying/treating the underlying mental stuff that made me want to live in a haze in the first place.

I do however like the idea of acceptance. It has become apparent (although I am still early in recover) that some real damage has been done to my cognitive functions. If mindfulness hadn't taught me to be able to shrug off those thoughts and accept my current state I would likely be an anxious mess worrying about it.

 

[neversickanymore]

It has become apparent (although I am still early in recover) that some real damage has been done to my cognitive functions.

I would be really surprised if this turns out to be any type of permanent damage, more of a programming issue that can and will be resolved to possibly create function that's far superior to anything you have experienced previously.


Another thing, when I went to rehab ten years ago they spent two hours of the 28 days I was there on triggers. WTH, they are way off base there. So many of them just pump the fellowships all day long and rely on its group reprogramming to work. I belive some of this comes from monetary desires of rehabs and that it does not take nearly as much effort or skill to do compaired with individually orientated counseling. With these places charging 1000 dollars a day its kinda highway robbery IMO.

This time I looked at everything I could find, literally thousands of hours of research over the last two years. I came up with a recovery plan that has worked like a charm. It included some things from current addiction treatment, but in some very key areas I went 180 in the other direction, it included areas that are barely if at all promoted, and totally scrapped a ton of nonsense and reworked a bunch of the voodoo mysticism that currently extends into easily understood rational concepts. I feal that by taking this approach I have healed from addiction as opposed to putting techniques in place to fight a never ending battle.

Id be surprised if I present much of an addict in my current state. At this point I feal im healthier than most of the people on this planet, addicts or not.

Im very happy with the success I have finally found. After 25 years of drug use and abuse and over a dozen of active addiction I finally worked my way out.

The current addiction treatment model is so whacked out it was like slogging through a quagmire in the dark. Sure there is stable level ground to be found, but finding it amid all the mist and pitfalls was a real challenge.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

I know people who are Latino or Hispanic, and they said how for decades in various Central American countries they have AA/NA; but how traditionally if someone was an alcoholic or drug addict before AA/NA and rehab/treatment centers were around they would just keep very busy in their life even doing chores or gardening/farming, working, or doing something to keep their mind off of using drugs or alcohol, and keep them busy so they did not use.

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

Wonderful thread.

You're right, the long and short of it is that in terms of either national or international organisations there's not much in the way of help outside of 12-step wherever you are. Of course there is SMART recovery which is growing, but I didn't find the few meetings I went to particularly to my liking. They were ok but way too focused on theory and suchlike for my liking, there didn't seem to actually be any discussion/sharing of people's individual issues which for me is kind of central to the process of recovery. I found them kind of like they had purposefully made the meetings as far away from a 12-step meeting as they possibly could.

For me, I would like to have an organisation that was not necessarily centred on 100% abstinence, but at the same time was open to that route as a road to success for people. I'd like to have somewhere that was a hub for sharing scientific knowledge with regards to the cessation of substance abuse, but also functioned as a place for people to talk about exactly what is going on for them and how they feel. I'd like somewhere that provided/used cbt techniques and relapse prevention strategies (although for me the concept of relapse prevention has always seemed a little futile, I think most people know exactly what triggers them if they're honest), but at the same time was a place for people to provide subjective experiences on the subject. I'd like it to be totally free of any kind of dogma or religion.

As you can tell, I'm easily pleased....

edit: Just realised the thread title was aimed at sobriety (and is in the sober living section d'oh), whereas I would like somewhere where the focus is merely on getting people's issues with substance abuse resolved and that position maintained, so that drugs are no longer a negative influence on their life.

 

[bcfly7x7]

Well, all I can say is I never really got anything from the mainstream recovery system in place. If they want to be useful to the many people who are currently turned off by the current system some type of paradigm shift must occur in the industry. I don't have any real specific ideas as I can only speak for what helped me and what hasn't, I don't think there is one cure-all plan that encompasses most addicts. Personally what has helped me is studying the science of addiction and what has happened to the brain, mindfulness, CBT, yoga, meditation, and also working on cleaning up my nutrition. I never really took care of my body during active addiction so now I need to try to focus on my physical health just as much as working on identifying/treating the underlying mental stuff that made me want to live in a haze in the first place.

I agree 100%, the focus on healty living is no just drug free, all aspects need work. There has to be more than one voice to the masses and whether it be in detox/rehab or OP or AA/NA it's the same message. Why not talk about the healing properties of exercise.

I do however like the idea of acceptance. It has become apparent (although I am still early in recover) that some real damage has been done to my cognitive functions. If mindfulness hadn't taught me to be able to shrug off those thoughts and accept my current state I would likely be an anxious mess worrying about it.

We must have acceptance of our acitons, we must remember the past no matter how hard that might be. If we forget our past we are doomed to repeat it in the future.

Thank for the ideas straight.

Bob

 

[bcfly7x7]

Another thing, when I went to rehab ten years ago they spent two hours of the 28 days I was there on triggers. WTH, they are way off base there. So many of them just pump the fellowships all day long and rely on its group reprogramming to work. I belive some of this comes from monetary desires of rehabs and that it does not take nearly as much effort or skill to do compaired with individually orientated counseling. With these places charging 1000 dollars a day its kinda highway robbery IMO.

This time I looked at everything I could find, literally thousands of hours of research over the last two years. I came up with a recovery plan that has worked like a charm. It included some things from current addiction treatment, but in some very key areas I went 180 in the other direction, it included areas that are barely if at all promoted, and totally scrapped a ton of nonsense and reworked a bunch of the voodoo mysticism that currently extends into easily understood rational concepts. I feal that by taking this approach I have healed from addiction as opposed to putting techniques in place to fight a never ending battle.

NSA, man you're spot on. Rarely did we take about triggers. They need to be identified and brought to the forefront. This is one of the main reasons for relapse. Once treatment is done most return to normal routines and whether by choice or just a straight screw up, they seem to fall back into old habits.

The current addiction treatment model is so whacked out it was like slogging through a quagmire in the dark. Sure there is stable level ground to be found, but finding it amid all the mist and pitfalls was a real challenge.

There is the exact reason for this thread. Hopefully we are on our way to finding that stable ground. Admittedly nothing 100%, but we have to be better than a 25%-35% success rate.

 

[bcfly7x7]

Wonderful thread.

edit: Just realised the thread title was aimed at sobriety (and is in the sober living section d'oh), whereas I would like somewhere where the focus is merely on getting people's issues with substance abuse resolved and that position maintained, so that drugs are no longer a negative influence on their life.

Cat,

It doesn't matter to me where this is posted, your concept is what we/i are looking for. Your suggestions are great, that would be nice to have a hub somewhere. The concept needs to be defined using a number of different suggestions and then toy with it and see what works best.

Thx for the thoughts,

Bob

 

[phactor]

Narcotics Anonymous has had its own source of literature for many years. It isn't big book based and has a very different feel then AA IMO. The Basic Text, Just For Today, It Works: How and Why and Living Clean The Journey Continues are all published by the NAWS. NA also has its own Step Work Guide. NA has a very different feel from AA and NA makes much more sense to me. The Big Book never made sense to me, NA literature does. I can get into this more, but really its something that has to be experience.

I'd suggest you look into this a little bit more, the Basic Text of NA is on its sixth edition. AA tends to be more conservative when it comes to change which. AA also tends to focus more on the HP while NA is more about "The Group" and "Unity".


Keep in mind all things, including the 90 in 90 are suggestions. I have done two of them because I really needed to at the time. I wouldn't have stayed clean without it. I have said, I tried and tried and tried for over a decade to stop on my own. I just couldn't. Oh well. I never felt anything "being rammed down my throat". My addiction was constantly doing that to me though. "You can do it this time!" "Oh just one more of blank, its okay" "You are not like THEM, they are addicts not you"

The Treatment Industry uses the 12 steps, but it is changing quite a bit. Its an error to suggest that treatment and or the 12 steps are causing relapses. Relapse is very common, treatment or no treatment. Just the nature of the beast. Treatment is changing every year. Its constantly in flux. Its just people do not tend to notice this unless they are involved in the field. Think about something like Suboxone... that has had a huge impact on treatment.

Also, these are great questions to ask at Outpatient, I understand some of where you are coming from because I used to really really not want to have anything to do with the 12 steps... but if you think you can do it on your own then by all means try. For me, NA is one of the least judgmental and accepting places I have ever been and I currently need it to maintain some happiness in my life. I love going to NA meetings for the most part. It never feels forced.

One final point: Keep in mind that while treatments tend to use the 12 steps, No fellowship is run or influenced or affiliated with treatment. The 12 steps will not change because there really isn't any type of entity that could do it and the members believe they work.

There are things like SMART, which I hear is growing but I personally haven't noticed it.

Have you been to a meeting yet? The better question is a few different meetings at a few different places? Also, have you looked into the myriad of research that shows that treatment does work? Because its out there, in fact the majority of research suggest that it helps.

 

[bcfly7x7]

Phactor,

Ok so first off like I said, this has nothing to do with my personal situation. Its just a discussion that I proposed based on the incredibly high relapse rate in people when using traditional treatment after rehab.

My idea here is just to find a way to help more people succeed.

To indulge you however, yes, I have been to 3 different NA meetings, while I never said they used the big book, it is similar in their approach to sobriety. The 12 steps are remarkably similar. Again, no problem with the group or anyone that this works for. By all means if it worked for you, please keep doing it. Thats awesome, and thank you for your idea's.

No one said treatment doesn't work. The idea is to find a way to help the over %60 that fail while doing traditional treatment. We just all want to see more success and there needs to be another way for those that it hasn't worked for.

Thx again

Bob

 

[njirem]

are you familiar with 'the circles Van Dijk?

Long story short: there are five circles.

Central circle is the substance one is addicted to.
The other 4 are pharmacologic, psychiatric, physical and social.

All the circles are connected, when one goes the wrong way, they all turn the wrong way.
The solution would be to achieve that all the circles move the right way. wich can only be achieved when the center circle (substance) is going the right way.
In other words: you use, you go downhill no matter what.
There are some nuances and there is a lot more to it, and i dont know if anybody is familiar with this, but this system is used over here and very succesfull because it makes that the threatment is very individual and personalised.
Sure as hell works for me
Tomorrow ill explain if you want me too.

 

[bcfly7x7]

That would be great njirem, thats the point, find out what works and go from there. The concept seems interesting.

Thx,
Bob

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

are you familiar with 'the circles Van Dijk?

Long story short: there are five circles.

Central circle is the substance one is addicted to.
The other 4 are pharmacologic, psychiatric, physical and social.

All the circles are connected, when one goes the wrong way, they all turn the wrong way.
The solution would be to achieve that all the circles move the right way. wich can only be achieved when the center circle (substance) is going the right way.
In other words: you use, you go downhill no matter what.
There are some nuances and there is a lot more to it, and i dont know if anybody is familiar with this, but this system is used over here and very succesfull because it makes that the threatment is very individual and personalised.
Sure as hell works for me
Tomorrow ill explain if you want me too.

Can you please explain more about Van Dijk and the circles in regards to what they are, how they are used in the Netherlands in alcohol/drug addiction/treatment, etc.?

 

[phactor]

No one said treatment doesn't work. The idea is to find a way to help the over %60 that fail while doing traditional treatment. We just all want to see more success and there needs to be another way for those that it hasn't worked for.

Thx again

Bob

The rate of relapse is much higher the 60 percent and very little research indicates that it is due to a failure in the current treatment model. Treatment tends to have higher positive results when compared to no treatment. Relapse is a part of the disease. Sadly, relapse is part of the process. That relapse can and does kill, but it can also inspire people to get more serious. It can also lead to people giving up and just using. Its a really complex disease.

If we had something that works better then current treatment it would be used. Treatment is constantly changing and there have been quite a few improvements.

Your goals are admirable though.

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

Improvements to treatment for drug addiction? Really?

I'm not aware of any changes in the status quo that has resulted in a significant improvement to the rate of people getting their lives back on track myself. Out of personal interest (rather than it being a challenge to your statement) what are these improvements?

 

[mister.firefly]

Buddhist Approach to Recovery

Hi there,

I appreciate this thread. I'm a member of a few 12 Step groups, and I have found myself struggling at times with some elements of the program. I've gotten a lot out of my affiliation. However, I don't like the emphasis some members place upon "powerlessness". And the sometimes culty submission to a higher power. I have found it that it constrains me in terms of triggering my "learned helplessness" and sometimes I feel pushed to give up on trusting some of the positive things that I *do* know.

I am curious about NeverSickAnymore's recovery plan:

This time I looked at everything I could find, literally thousands of hours of research over the last two years. I came up with a recovery plan that has worked like a charm. It included some things from current addiction treatment, but in some very key areas I went 180 in the other direction, it included areas that are barely if at all promoted, and totally scrapped a ton of nonsense and reworked a bunch of the voodoo mysticism that currently extends into easily understood rational concepts. I feal that by taking this approach I have healed from addiction as opposed to putting techniques in place to fight a never ending battle.

[...]

The current addiction treatment model is so whacked out it was like slogging through a quagmire in the dark. Sure there is stable level ground to be found, but finding it amid all the mist and pitfalls was a real challenge.

Is it Related to the Addiction Guide you link to?

---------

BUDDHIST APPROACH TO RECOVERY: the 8 Steps

I have recently discovered a book and a new online meeting dedicated to using Buddhist principles for recovery from addiction. As a practicing buddhist, this attracts me. The Four Noble Truths apply to addiction: our current suffering comes in part from our past and current behavior, and if we change our behavior, we can find our way towards less suffering in the future.

Information here (if I'm allowed to link): https://thebuddhistcentre.com/eightsteps?display=latest

There is an online meeting Wednesdays at 2pm Eastern.

Step One: Accepting that this human life will bring suffering.
Step Two: Seeing how we create extra suffering in our lives.
Step Three: Embracing impermanence shows us that our suffering can end
Step Four: Being willing to step onto the path of recovery -- and discover freedom
Step Five: Transforming our speech, actions and livelihood.
Step Six: Placing positive values at the centre of our lives.
Step Seven: Making every effort to stay on the path of recovery.
Step Eight: Helping others by sharing the benefits we have gained.


I recognize that it's not exactly cutting edge. But a Buddhist approach seems to be to be less mystical and more about learning how to be more skillfully behaved adult (rather than to be a "well-behaved child" appeasing a higher power).

At any rate, it's nice to have alternatives to the 12 Step Megalith.

I'm tired right now and I don't feel like I'm expressing myself clearly. I think what I've written here appears much more Anti-12 Steps fellowships than I actually am. 12 Steps Fellowships have been a lifesaver for me, and I've worked hard to find an approach to the 12 Steps that works for me. I do really appreciate them. I'm very happy about daily inventories right now, and how they help me with my 'hot thoughts'.

But I do think there could be some improvements.

Cheers,

mister.firefly

 

[Just A Guy]

^^ As far as I know, Neversickanymore has been the main author of the addiction guide stickied on Sober Living, so it would make sense that his recovery plan cross-references a lot of what he's writing about.

I think that where there is a plan, the thing to do is to follow it, and once implemented, a person can adjust aspects of it to suit themselves better, generally speaking.

Neat post, by the way.