Thumbs up for St. John Wort

[da_sense]

I've taken ZMA + valerian + melatonin + can't remember what but nothing really helps much for me to sleep...except some weed

 

[Exime5150]

xanax is good for help with sleep

 

[LucidShadows]

SJW vs. Ginkgo

Hey people, I'd like to clarify something along these lines.

Does Ginkgo (Biloba) have similar negative effects as SJW, when taken with MDMA?

I've heard it also is a mild MAOI, but is it enough to produce Serotonin Syndrome?

During the last 2 raves I've gone to, I've done 2 pills in the space of 6 hours, and then followed with a whole lot of ginkgo biloba. It produced an awesome euphoric feeling that had me grinning all the way home, while my mates were trying to do everything in their power to lessen their comedown.

So Ginkgo certainly works for me, I'd just like to know if I'm running myself into the ground?

 

[itwasntme]

Hmmm, I'd have a hard time believing Gonkgo is a MAO inhibitor... Although I find it does give me a bit of an energy boost, which in turn makes me happy.

I'm guessing your mates had a lot more than 2 pills, hence why they were feeling duff and you were feeling great

 

[ro4eva]

Ginkgo Biloba increases blood flow to the brain. This shouldn't directly have any negative interactions with MDMA.

Oh BTW - all you peeps who are saying SJW is dangerous with MDMA are exaggerating bigtime. It is not even known if SJW does infact act as a MAOI or SSRI, its all theory.

I find that SJW works real good when coming down from E. Better than 5-HTP, L-Tyrosine, Melatonin, Ginkgo, etc.
It sedates and levels off your mood, real soothing.

Last friday I went clubbing and popped 2 pills, got fucked, came home, took 900mg SJW and nothing else. 2 Days later I went to a Deepdish rave popped 2 again and got fucked again, totally euphoric, not just speedy.

It works, and it's safe.

 

[LucidShadows]

SJW vs. Ginkgo vs. MDMA

ahhh good, thanks guys that's reassuring to hear , but I ought to show you why I have this concern;


I've tried researching Ginkgo a bit, and came up with mixed results
I'll show you all what I've found, see if we can get to a definate conclusion!

"Extracts of Ginkgo biloba leaves produce reversible inhibition of rat brain monoamine (MAO). Both MAO-A and -B types were inhibited to a similar extent. The MAO inhibitory compound(s) were present in dried or fresh Ginkgo biloba leaves as well as in commercially available capsules of Ginkgo biloba and appear to be heat stable with relatively low molecular weight. MAO inhibition by Ginkgo biloba may be a mechanism underlying reported anti-stress and anxiolytic activities of this natural product. "
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/ginkgomaoi.html


"Studies have shown that the extract counteracts the gradual reduction in the number of serotonin receptor sites (which ecstacy does, causing down relegulation of receptor sites: eg: damaging them). Besides increasing the number of serotonin receptors sites, Ginkgo biloba extract may also enhance the effects of 5-HTP. Take it with 5-htp 4-5 hours before you drop, and take it after to help prevent and repair damage to serotonin receptors. But be careful and use it in moderation when taking it with X because ginkgo biloba can act as a mild MAOi. "
http://www.geocities.com/jdivx2002/info.rtf


"Ginkgo's use in depression may be due in part to its ability to increase cerebral blood flow.80 Ginkgo has been reported in laboratory studies to have monoamine oxidase inhibiting (MAOI) effects. MAOIs are a class of anti-depressant pharmaceuticals. Ginkgo has been found to inhibit both MAO-A and -B types to a similar extent.81 Ginkgo's MAOI ability may be one mechanism for its reported anti-stress and antidepressant uses. However, recent animal and human studies have reported that ginkgo administration does not produce significant changes in brain MAO-A or MAO-B, suggesting that mechanisms other than MAO inhibition need to be considered as mediating some of its antidepressant effects."
http://www.hsrmagazine.com/articles/2c1feat1.html


"The study was designed to determine whether Ginkgo Biloba extract could alter the number of serotonin receptors in aged (24 month old) and young (four-month-old) rats. At the beginning of the study the older rats had a 22 percent lower number of serotonin binding sites compared with the younger rats. The results of consistent treatment with Ginkgo biloba extract for twenty-one consecutive days demonstrated that there was no change in receptor binding in young rats, but in the aged rats there was a statistically
significant increase (by 33 percent) in the number of serotonin-binding sites. These results indicate that Ginkgo biloba extract may counteract at least some, if not all, of the age-dependent reductions of serotonin binding sites in the aging human brain as well. "
http://www.iherb.com/iherb/ginbilovandl.html


"Ginkgo biloba significantly increases the number of serotonin binding sites in the brain. As we age, the number of serotonin receptor sites on brain cells drops significantly. We become more susceptible to depression, impaired mental function, insomnia and sleep disturbances. Ginkgo may be taken along with St. John's wort or 5-HTP."
http://www.locateadoc.com/articles.cfm/search/103

**SJW**
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/hypericum.htm


It was that second quote that I found early on that got me worried. It specifies Ginkgo use with X right off, and doesn't reccomend it with X. Maybe its dose related?

Other research there suggests that its action in the brain is only in the aged population, BUT, isn't the X reaction in the brain similar to that of the aging process?

What I'd really like to know (and I'm sure the others out there using this product and 1s like it would like to know too), is Ginkgo's action while MDMA is fooling around with serotonin;

---->What would be the result of increased serotonin binding sites produced by Ginkgo, while on MDMA?

 

[BilZ0r]

That 2nd quote is a little messed up, and I would ignore it. The question is whether or not Ginkgo extracts, at normal human usage, have an MAOI effect. this paper indicates that it probably isn't. But still, one should be weary. I wouldn't mix them.

Indeed, the fact that ginkgo increases serotonin receptors indicates that it isn't an MAOI primarily.

Still, if chronic ginko treatment does up regulate serotonin receptors, the question is what receptors. It has been shown that it upregulates 5-HT1A receptors 1, (which would probably be a bad thing for your MDMA high) but I'm not awear of anyone looking at any other receptors. That fits with evidence that it INCREASEs serotonin uptake 2 (and decreased free serotonin could fit with vasodilator models). So it looks pretty complex. Depending on the mechanism of ginkgo mediated increase in serotonin uptake, ginkgo could potentiate or block the effects of MDMA, which is more complicated still with potential 5-HT1A receptor and MAO effects.

Either way, I wouldn't take the combination.

 

[LucidShadows]

Righto, thanks for that. I'll keep it for pre/postloading, and use it in moderation well after the MDMA kicks in. As much as I enjoyed the last time when I took 6x2000g extract after 2 pills, I don't know enough of what its doing to keep that up.

I'd imagine the same caution would be advisable for SJW, as much of a tangent as my input has been to the main topic here heh.

 

[Morpher]

I bought a bottle of St John Wort and the chemist was adamant that it had SSRI properties, not MAOI. Is there any evidence that it has MAOI properties or is this just a rumor that got going somehow...