The Weak Science Behind Psychedelics - If vulnerable patients are going to take powerful hallucinogens, they deserve better evidence.

[tryptakid]

Sharing a gift link for folks who want to read:

The Weak Science Behind Psychedelics

If vulnerable patients are going to take powerful hallucinogens, they deserve better evidence.

www.theatlantic.com

From the article:

No psychiatric treatment has attracted quite as much cash and hype as psychedelics have in the past decade. Articles about the drugs’ surprising results—including large improvements on depression scores and inducing smokers to quit after just a few doses—earned positive coverage from countless journalists (present company included). Organizations researching psychedelics raised millions of dollars, and clinicians promoted their potential to be a “new paradigm” in mental-health care. Michael Pollan’s 2018 psychedelics book, How to Change Your Mind, became a best seller and a Netflix documentary. Psychedelics were made out to be a safe solution for society’s most challenging mental-health problems.

But the bubble has started to burst: It’s been a bad year for fans of psychedelics.


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I feel that this article highlights an ongoing challenge facing the integration of psychedelics into our concepts and models of therapies. Amongst the criticisms highlighted is the indication that leaders in psychedelic science have embraced a cultic milleu in their persona...

Perhaps therapy isn't the discipline that should be embracing psychedelics. If they remain too rooted in the realm of spiritual healing, it may not be the right tool to integrate into therapy spaces as therapy has always been rooted in agnosticism to a degree. Pursuing psychedelic healing through ministry, ritual, and spiritual paths may be the better home for these therapies. Western society is notably bereft of these practices in this current epoch.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I think the psychedelic therapy thing is going to be grossly exploited just like opioids were by unscrupulous doctors.

Psychedelics are the most delusional drug of all in terms of making the user think it’s good for them. Seen a lot of ppl lost and never come back from psychedelic drug addiction. Yes they are addictive. I found them plenty addictive.

Especially giving ppl a super addictive and powerful methamphetamine like MDMA. Same for ketamine. Ultra addictive and super toxic drugs. The rush of MDMA is equivalent to the euphoria of a crack hit….good luck giving someone a taste of that and them not going to seek more.

Serotonergeic psychs like psilocybin is one thing.

But mdma and ketamine is way to addictive and destructive. Give a person with depression or PTSD infusions of of mdma or ketamine and you’re creating a new addict imo.

 

[Jnowhere]

WTF: we agree, I wonder if this is a good or bad omen.

 

[Jnowhere]

Sharing a gift link for folks who want to read:

The Weak Science Behind Psychedelics

If vulnerable patients are going to take powerful hallucinogens, they deserve better evidence.

www.theatlantic.com

From the article:

No psychiatric treatment has attracted quite as much cash and hype as psychedelics have in the past decade. Articles about the drugs’ surprising results—including large improvements on depression scores and inducing smokers to quit after just a few doses—earned positive coverage from countless journalists (present company included). Organizations researching psychedelics raised millions of dollars, and clinicians promoted their potential to be a “new paradigm” in mental-health care. Michael Pollan’s 2018 psychedelics book, How to Change Your Mind, became a best seller and a Netflix documentary. Psychedelics were made out to be a safe solution for society’s most challenging mental-health problems.

But the bubble has started to burst: It’s been a bad year for fans of psychedelics.


--

I feel that this article highlights an ongoing challenge facing the integration of psychedelics into our concepts and models of therapies. Amongst the criticisms highlighted is the indication that leaders in psychedelic science have embraced a cultic milleu in their persona...

Perhaps therapy isn't the discipline that should be embracing psychedelics. If they remain too rooted in the realm of spiritual healing, it may not be the right tool to integrate into therapy spaces as therapy has always been rooted in agnosticism to a degree. Pursuing psychedelic healing through ministry, ritual, and spiritual paths may be the better home for these therapies. Western society is notably bereft of these practices in this current epoch.

So you are some kind of therapist; I knew it.

 

[tryptakid]

So you are some kind of therapist; I knew it.

I am, though I am no longer working as a clinician full-time these days. Now I develop programming and do policy work regarding drug use prevention and recovery services.

 

[Mjäll]

Psychedelic drug use is a deeply personal and intimate pursuit. The only collective format required is complete legalization. People learn to take the drugs in solitude or with close confidants. The benefits are obvious, as are the risks.

I think mentioning bath tub drownings was a low blow. That's just irresponsible behavior. However, i agree that the research is largely covert activism.

 

[JackARoe]

Everything gets exploited by mankind. Any drug can be a good or bad tool. Add in the "money making" factor it will get exploited. The whole ayahuasca retreat thing irritates me. I like how LSD was released onto the public WITHOUT other humans interfering. I very much hold the Merry Prankster model of releasing these things in public. Casualties and all. Because there is no human being that stands on high enough to point down and tell us what we should do with psychedelics.

I also get annoyed by people that microdose without ever having had a macrodose. I am totally ok with people microdosing if they already had a few macrodoses to see the extent of the tools. The heart valve thingy makes me never want to microdose and save my trips for macros.

 

[Jnowhere]

Psychedelic drug use is a deeply personal and intimate pursuit. The only collective format required is complete legalization. People learn to take the drugs in solitude or with close confidants. The benefits are obvious, as are the risks.

I think mentioning bath tub drownings was a low blow. That's just irresponsible behavior. However, i agree that the research is largely covert activism.

What about it triggering mental illness?

 

[Jnowhere]

I am, though I am no longer working as a clinician full-time these days. Now I develop programming and do policy work regarding drug use prevention and recovery services.

Doesn't using psychedelics trigger mental illness in people? Like Syd Barrett co founder of Pink Floyd who used a lot of LSD and triggered his schizophrenia?

 

[tryptakid]

Doesn't using psychedelics trigger mental illness in people? Like Syd Barrett co founder of Pink Floyd who used a lot of LSD and triggered his schizophrenia?

They certainly can - any intense experience can contribute to the process of kindling that occurs in the development of psychosis. Trauma, major life changes (college is a big one), relationship challenges, poverty, war, psychedelics - they're all things that sort of push our mind's buffer and put it to the test. If someone is prone to psychosis and experiences a major traumatic event, it can start the process that leads to psychosis. That same person could also have that process begin during a psychedelic trip.

Some people may have the building blocks of psychosis (certain cognitive styles/thought pattern anomalies/sensitivity to unusual experiences) but live a life that's insulated enough from trauma or triggers where they remain relatively functional. Some folks even have the building blocks for psychosis but are able to find a life style that merges with their mindstyle.

It's like... shaman or prophets maybe were folks who were touched by the otherside in that context, but in our day and age they're standing in front of a 7-11 with a sign because we don't have an ample fit for them, hearing voices from the universe while the world ignores them and marches on.

 

[tryptakid]

Everything gets exploited by mankind. Any drug can be a good or bad tool. Add in the "money making" factor it will get exploited. The whole ayahuasca retreat thing irritates me. I like how LSD was released onto the public WITHOUT other humans interfering. I very much hold the Merry Prankster model of releasing these things in public. Casualties and all. Because there is no human being that stands on high enough to point down and tell us what we should do with psychedelics.

I also get annoyed by people that microdose without ever having had a macrodose. I am totally ok with people microdosing if they already had a few macrodoses to see the extent of the tools. The heart valve thingy makes me never want to microdose and save my trips for macros.

Tripping on Nothing

New, non-hallucinogenic versions of psychedelics are blurring the boundaries of the drug trip.

www.theatlantic.com

Wonder what your thoughts on this is, in that case?

 

[MedicinalUser247]

I'm just wondering about future Psychedelics that haven't been created yet.

 

[tryptakid]

I'm just wondering about future Psychedelics that haven't been created yet.

Or which have long been since forgotten

 

[JackARoe]

Tripping on Nothing

New, non-hallucinogenic versions of psychedelics are blurring the boundaries of the drug trip.

www.theatlantic.com

Wonder what your thoughts on this is, in that case?

My initial reaction is the same as I had when people were raving about CBD being "good" but making THC be the "bad" thing that causes a high. Some of those notions seem to be present here.

The whole notiont that a "high" is a bad thing irritates me to no end.

In my view the trip or high, of cannabis or psychedelics ARE the healing factor. The approacn that is taken here is that a drug only works on receptors, and if we get rid of the high we can patent a medicine as good, or fixed. So really I feel the same way about this as the whole CBD or microdose fad.

To me all aspects of the high is part of the healing. Insights, reflection, seeing things from another perspective is more healing than "tickling" a receptor. So to me this is more of the same nonsense.

Saying that tryptakid if this is the direction some therapy is going it is ok with the right people heading it up. And it can open doors. So this is just my worthless opinion. If it is a way to get full legalization then I can see the logic. I just wish people were not so prejudiced against the drugs we have been using for years and trying to perfect what is a already perfect.

 

[tryptakid]

My initial reaction is the same as I had when people were raving about CBD being "good" but making THC be the "bad" thing that causes a high. Some of those notions seem to be present here.

Ah yes - the 'good/bad dichotomy - diacetylmorphine is 'bad' but morphine is 'good'.

In my vew the trip or high, of cannabis or psychedelics ARE the healing factor.

I agree with you - the healing effects are often the subtext of the experience such as a day spent appreciating the beauty of our world with friends. How many times a visual I've experienced has triggered an idea that has lead to a conceptual development or self-analysis. Watching as the ocean had broken down a rock wall creating these vibrant (and high-definition in my state at the time) microsystems that mixed the ocean, rocks, and plant life from the shore which had previously been separated, lead me to considering my own systems and how those systems can become stagnant without occasional disruption. It was the combination of the objective receptor activation and the subjective experience of the drug itself. Medicine is most focused on objective benefits, but poor at conceptualizing the subjective (something that I spend most of my time exploring as a therapist). Unfortunately, it was often medicine that is given the authority to pave our way forward, while therapy is a frequent after thought.

I'm reminded of SSRIs in the 90s, how they were a 'bridge' to getting into therapy, and were only thought to be necessary for a short time-period. Fast forward to the 2020s and there are folks who have never come off of SSRIs and still need them to function because of 'anxiety' or 'depression'. Therapy was an afterthought and as a result, people just stayed on the 'good' medications which also interfere with 'bad' medicines ( like psilocybin or MDMA).

To me all aspects of the high is part of the healing. Insights, reflection, seeing things from another perspective is more healing than "tickling" a receptor. So to me this is more of the same nonsense.

Agreed

Saying that tryptakid if this is the direction some therapy is going it is ok with the right people heading it up. And it can open doors. So this is just my worthless opinion. If it is a way to get full legalization then I can see the logic. I just wish people were not so prejudiced against the drugs we have been using for years and trying to perfect what is a already perfect.

Hardly worthless. I value your insight tremendously!

 

[neversickanymore]

At least in the US, I don’t think medical professionals are the right people to administer psychedelics or guide people through their “therapy.” The medical field here is utterly broken, extremely greed driven, astonishingly arrogant and unqualified or nor suited to guide anyone anywhere with psychedelics.

 

[tryptakid]

At least in the US, I don’t think medical professionals are the right people to administer psychedelics or guide people through their “therapy.” The medical field here is utterly broken, extremely greed driven, astonishingly arrogant and unqualified or nor suited to guide anyone anywhere with psychedelics.

As a former clinician who worked within a primary care clinic (community health so only vaguely less greedy than private medicine) I can only say - yes, this.

Psychedelic integration is the only caveat I would offer - as a therapist I can see there being a beneficial opportunity to offer the planning and debrief work outside of a psychedelic experience. Once you start including fee for trips however.... I just don't see that going in a good direction. Further, the boundaries inherent to clinical practice are different than the boundaries that may be necessary in psychedelic experiences. Mixing up those things can't be good for the relationship between client and clinician. I think these things are best residing in academia, recreational/personal, or spiritual practice for the time being.

 

[bigjackaal96]

Restarting this topic. The biggest issue here Is that DXM a SNRI yet there the infamous study that compared high dose shrooms to 400mg DXM. Showed that a 450 ~ 600mg dose with no conversion to DXO, No would notice since the study had the sample group cheat by pointing out DXM's Disso effects. Noticed this with chlorphenamine at 8 ~ 24mg It felt very trippy.