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The universe is not objective

Dedbeet

Dedbeet

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I think we need a new paradigm in terms of examining the universe, if in fact it can be done at all.

We're currently assuming a separate subject examining an objective universe.

We're also assuming time as external to the subject and existing out in the objective universe.

I propose we have this backward:

(A) The universe is NOT external to the subject -- the universe is internal to the subject (consciousness).

(B) Time is NOT external to the subject -- Time is internal to the subject (consciousness).

To try and sum up the above: We are not separate from the universe, yet we're examining it as though we were. The actual subject is consciousness, and consciousness has no inner/outer division to it.

Thus, we cannot examine an external/objective universe, because there isn't one.

We assume there is because we assume time exists separately from us, out there in the universe.

I wouldn't bet on that.

A spinning earth and moving planets (from which we coordinate our clocks) actually say nothing at all about time.

We say all of it.
 
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I've been having very similar thoughts lately!

Except for point B. I don't quite understand what you mean in saying that we view "time as external to the subject".


So, once we accept that there is no division between "subjective" and "objective" reality... what next? Where does that lead us?
 
It's interesting this thread popped up at this time, i've been going through a sort of identity crisis for a little over a year now since i became interested in raising Kundalini.

It's only been recently that i've begun to go through a process of dis-identification.. which has opened a window to seemingly infinite liberation. It's strange, you can understand this for years.. yet it's not until it really becomes an integrated aspect of your life that you become to truly know it.

This video in-particular has only now had an immense impact in my understanding of this process, and i feel Ken does an amazing job at describing more or less, the topic of this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ_HsQkBkJA
 
lol like if everyone was trapped inside their own sphere... made out of a mirror, but you could see out of it because its a window to the one inside of it. so you would see a reflection of every sphere at once
but you wouldnt understand it because you can only see inside yours, and just the reflection of everyone elses, infinitely. but its actually a vessel that your traveling through or a womb. and ur waiting to be born.
 
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^ he is taking bits and pieces from other threads, or other sources, and compiling them into his own threads one after another

very intelligent, very fluent with his words, and is trying to stir up trouble.
 
Thus, we cannot examine an external/objective universe, because there isn't one.
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The existence of an external world is, to me, obviously the best explanation to infer from our perceptions.
 
i wholeheartedly agree with the fact that "we are the universe"
(as i often ramble)

however, i don't see the incompatibility about an element examining the whole
why wouldn't it be possible?
 
vegan said:
however, i don't see the incompatibility about an element examining the whole.

why wouldn't it be possible?
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Because you're never actually examining the whole -- you're examining small parts, and putting together a picture of a whole. In essence, you're creating a conceptual whole from constituent parts.

You can't ever actually examine the whole, all at the same time. How can one consider a picture of small parts put together by human beings to represent an objective reality that's there in the presence or absence of an observer? This is pure hubris, IMO.
Vader said:
The existence of an external world is, to me, obviously the best explanation to infer from our perceptions.
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True, but it is in fact an inference -- as what we perceive is not actually external to our perception. It has to be "internal", or we couldn't perceive it. We infer the externality aspect, as much as it may seem to be more than just an inference.
sssssssssss said:
is ur internal universe dualistic
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It is if you consider it to be *external*. If you really see that it's an internal universe, it isn't dualistic. The "separate self" needs an external universe to exist in, and so one's internal universe is projected (externalized, other-ized). But of course, it isn't really external.
 
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True, but it is in fact an inference -- as what we perceive is not actually external to our perception. It has to be "internal", or we couldn't perceive it. We infer the externality aspect, as much as it may seem to be more than just an inference.
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Of course. But I think that it's a valid inference that we are totally justified in drawing, given our experiences.
 
You can't ever actually examine the whole, all at the same time. How can one consider a picture of small parts put together by human beings to represent an objective reality that's there in the presence or absence of an observer?
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because we, humans, are limited

although some scientists are freaking good at discovering what the universe is made of

but what i mean is that i see no theoretical reason why an element couldn't be able to examine the whole it belongs to
i understand that it's some people's intuition, but i haven't seen a sound explanation for it
 
seems you are just talking about nondualism which I subscribe to as well. We are essentially the universe observing itself. We all have an ego who is convinced it is separate from the surrounding universe but this is simply an illusion.

the book "one" by jerry katz is an excellent compilation of non-dual writings from various sources as well (buddhism, tao, kaballah, vedanta, christian mysticism, native americans)

the excellent thing about non-dualism is faith isn't required because you can experience it yourself through meditation and other practices.

we are all but an individual wave in a ocean of pure consciousness in my opinion. a single part of one whole.
 
villian said:
we are all but an individual wave in a ocean of pure consciousness in my opinion. a single part of one whole.
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What happens if you look at it as "I (consciousness) am the whole, of which my body and its surroundings (including other people's bodies) are the parts?

For one, you lose all your company in terms of other persons, eh? ;).

And you lose yourself along with them.

"The great path has no gates,
thousands of roads enter it.
When you pass through the gateless gate,
you walk the universe alone."
- Mumon -

P.S. losing oneself is not a bad thing at all. Happens every time one watches a really good movie. That's why we call the movie "good". Buy a ticket for "temporary non-duality", $10.00 a pop.

Peace...
 
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The journey is within and has everything and nothing to do with the 'exterior' world. For real, everyone cheer up. God damn, why is everyone so confused, frantically searching for answers? (I fully include myself in this statement) What irritates me is everyone thinks they're jesus the know it all

P.S I think everyone should listen to the original post, but at the same time believe everyone has their own journey with which to discover existence themselves, to work things out. Maybe the OP is part of all reader's journey. You to decide. Yeah YOU
 
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