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The phenomonology of (good) music

ebola?

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What is it about music that makes it music (at its best)?
As far as I've been able to gather, it is this intangible factor. This immediately empirically evident "it". It is melodic, rhythmic, and tibral. Its physical manifestation is a shiver running up the spine and out the arms. It is like MDMA or amphetamine in this way, only not contrived. It is highly elusive for me...present only some of the time in only the best works of art.

I'm wondering in what capacity my experience has been shaped by my particular history as a listener rather than a musician. I don't see music as meaningful. It doesn't refer to anything. The beauty is in the music in a very direct way. The musician herself is largely irrelevant to me. It's as if the music is its own world.

I also wonder if peak musical experience is so illusive because of my personality. I am cold and logical. Powerful emotion is in short supply...

ebola
np: haujobb's best song.
 
Sound vibrations that fit well with the vibrations going up + down your spine / through your head / your peripheral nervous system / other organs or parts of your body.

At least that's my view. It's just "sound" vibrations of comfortable frequency/frequencies to you.
 
^ indeed it is magical. It creates an inner experience inwhich to me, is proof of the spiritual world as well.

According to the anciet kabbalah, music was one of the creative forces used by God to make the universe.
 
I would be extremely interested in finding out how exactly different patterns of sound waves affect us like music does. It seems strange that we could derive physical pleasure from something like that. This could be just a crazy stoner theory, so correct me if I'm wrong here. I'm under the impression that the neocortex processes all sensory information in a similar way. Do you think that there would be patterns shared by art/music in the visual and auditory cortexes? Would we see similar neuronal firing patterns in a brain that is hearing a certain song and tasting a certain food? In all these cases, some sensory information is causing pleasure. It would seem logical that since the neocortex is processing all this information similarly, that there is some underlying quality of art/music/good food/sex which is pleasurable to us on a fundamental level. This idea could also be applied to the synaesthesia sometimes experienced on LSD and other psychedelics. One type of sensory information going to the wrong part of the brain, and the brain interpreting it wrong. Say, interpreting the music as a color, or a smell. This is definetly something interesting to think about it, but I'm just too stoned to think about it anymore. :) Thanks for getting me wondering about it tho.

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rowland2110 said:
^ indeed it is magical. It creates an inner experience inwhich to me, is proof of the spiritual world as well.

According to the anciet kabbalah, music was one of the creative forces used by God to make the universe.

Well: "vibrations reach on up to become light and then through gamma out of sight." =D Remember that one, any old time Moody Blues fans?

Think of the vibration of Om. All life and spirit is vibration. And music can sooth animals and plants also. It has helped many a lonely soul survive the night. I love music!!!
:D
 
I've long thought that music is the purest of the arts, exactly because it impinges itself directly on one's consciousness, and it seems to have the power to access our deepest hopes, fears, and memories. Ever notice how quickly a song can transport you back to a certain point in your life, to the point of bringing back the feelings and thoughts you had? No other art can do that, at least not to me.

However, though some may disagree with me, I don't think music has much of an objective existence; I think it's something that we have to actively shape into a form that's pleasing to us. In other words, music is not just what the musician creates, it's what our minds "create" when we listen to it, which makes the difference between enjoying a song and hating an apparent cacophony.

I know people who can't stand anything but classical; I've never understood those people. I also know there are people out there who would never give classical the time of day; I've never understood those people. It only goes to show to me that listening to music is an active process. For instance, haven't you ever heard a song that you didn't care for at first, but as you listened to it more often it grew on you, until it became one of your favorites? It has, and continues to happen to me all the time.

I'd also have to agree that when it comes to music, the creator is not terribly important to the experience; I know almost nothing about Pink Floyd, Delirium, or Klaus Schulze, but I still love their music.

np: "Terminal Frost", Pink Floyd (from A Momentary Lapse of Reason) ;)
 
(from a gutarists point of view)
i believe that the "magical" experience in music isnt an intangible quality. i think music is similar to science in the way that each note has the ability to collide, harmonize, clash, etc. with other notes and thru this formula of "intervals" people can express emotion. since music is a "universal language" (we all perceive music in a similar way), it is easy for musicians to write music that many people can relate to and emphasize with.
 
I wanted to change my major in to psychology just to explore this phenomenon more. But i didn't have the balls to go through with it and change majors halfway through college. However I think that music plays directly on our neurons, triggering instinctual emotional responses that are within us since primeval times. I wish I had studied this more to be able to get to the bottom of it, but I'm sure there is a reason for this in the evolution of our psyche. For example the tonal progressions in a Major scale sound to us as cheerful, while a minor scale is melancholy. Arabic traditional music and Greek Orthodox Church chanting on the other hand use quarter-tone changes not found in Western music that creates a sense of loss that will almost make you cry. As a child I found myself sobbing uncontrollably to an Arabic song my mother was playing even though I had no idea about the words. Sure enough the words turned out to be depressing enough as they were.

A good musician knows how different tones can affect us and use this to his advantage when creating music. Even religions have leveraged the power of music over our emotions to make us feel "spiritual" or "cheerful" for God's love as in the Southern black churches. I personally like how the Greek Church and Qur'anic recitations have used quarter-tones to make the attender/listener feel the sense of "loss" for God.

As a side note like many of you I really don't care much for the musician or even the lyrics of the song. That's why I never really cared much for rap, the emphasis is on the words. I'm curious to know how many of you who focus on the music itself really like to listen to Rap.
 
As a side note like many of you I really don't care much for the musician or even the lyrics of the song. That's why I never really cared much for rap, the emphasis is on the words. I'm curious to know how many of you who focus on the music itself really like to listen to Rap.
I've always felt a different part of my brain (metaphorically) appreciates hip hop. I seek out another feeling, that I could only call transcendence really, entirely when I listen to some other fairly disparate styles of music. That is not to say that some hip hop hasn't actually come close to this ("blue flowers, growing by the purple pond..." :D)
 
rowland2110 said:
^ indeed it is magical. It creates an inner experience inwhich to me, is proof of the spiritual world as well.

True. Sometimes when listening to music I am so touched by it that I realise that if music that beautiful exists, it has to be a sort of 'preview' of heaven/nirvana/insert any random perfect afterworld or higher state of consciousness.

That's why I love this quote, it describes exactly how I feel about (good) music

"When music affects us to tears, seemingly causeless, we weep not, as Gravina supposes, from "excess of pleasure", but through excess of an impatient, petulant sorrow, that, as mere mortals, we are as yet in no condition to banquet upon those supernal ecstasies of which the music affords us merely a suggestive and indefinite glimpse"

- Edgar Allan Poe
 
One of my closest friends for more than fifteen years plays in a band that I saw play a couple of weeks ago. All the members of the band are very musically talented, have a strong sense of theatre & performance, and are fucking punk rawk. Every time, except the last, I saw them, I thought "I like what they're doing" but wasn't really moved. Their last performance (which may be their last) was bursting at the seams -- sliding between g-funk and metallic improv, stand up comedy and industrial dance. They meant it. No fucking around. A fight that appeared to be staged was an actual argument on stage.

Better to burn out...

Edited to: get rid of bullshit
 
i've thought for a damn long time that certain sounds trigger certain brainwaves that will make you feel a certain fabulous way. certain songs' effects on me seem to go beyond just "hey, this is a really good song."

*shrug* but maybe it just sounded good at the time when i was really stoned and had been listening to various idm all day.
 
>>i've thought for a damn long time that certain sounds trigger certain brainwaves that will make you feel a certain fabulous way
>>

The brainwaves thing is a bit of an oversimplification (that's not really what brainwaves indicate), but I think there is something identifiably neurophysiological going on.

ebola
 
you're better with big words than i am. i was incredibly sleep deprived when i tried to write that post :)
 
There is something about music...

Some interesting quotes about music

Tori Amos---
"Music is the most powerful medium in the world because of the frequencies. You're hitting places in people that remind them that they are more than just this functional being." –

Science writer and composer, Robert Jourdain, wrote in his book, Music, The Brain And Ecstacy:

"Music seems to be the most immediate of all the arts. …Music possesses us. …It really is as if some 'other' has entered not just our bodies, but our intentions, taking us over."

World-renowned musicologist, David Tame, has said, "Music is the language of languages." Tame went on to declare:

"It can be said of all the arts, there is none that more powerfully moves and changes the consciousness." ---

Medical Dr. and brain specialist, Richard Pellegrino, who is a consultant to the entertainment industry, wrote an article for Billboard Magazine, about the power of music. Dr. Pellegrino speaks of the incomparable power of music upon the human brain, stating that music has the uncanny power to:

"…trigger a flood of human emotions and images that have the ability to instantaneously produce very powerful changes in emotional states."
Pellegrino went on to declare:

"Take it from a brain guy. In 25 years of working with the brain, I still cannot affect a person's state of mind the way that one simple song can."

Also...there are some interesting articles to read about the spiritual aspect of music, though this page is a bit controversial, it's still interesting for someone really seeking to understand more about the origin of music...
www.TruthAboutRave.org
 
Good music seems to come out of total honesty and absorption on the part of the musician. If the musician is trying to do something with their music then it distances them from the actual act of creation and the music will ring hollow. It's this oneness that gives truly great music its signature. Of course, what is honestly reflected may be depressing or difficult depending on the artist (for example, radiohead).

By the same token, the difference between good and almost-good can only be discerned by a listener who is totally absorbed in listening. Otherwise the listener overlays his own biases and projections on the music and is unable to judge its intrinsic quality. Even if those biases do not distance the listener from the music, they will still dominate the types of music that resonate with her.
 
First off, I'll say here that my tastes in music lean more towards when the melody sends a chill down my spine, rather than the meaningfulness or emptiness of the lyrics (although there are cases to the contrary).

I think it (the spine-chilling factor) has a lot to do with the timing, combinations and alternation of chords (major/minor/whatever, whether explicit in the actual chords played, or implied by the melody).

<PIMP>
I recently discovered a band called Machinae Supremacy. Every one of their songs (that I have heard anyway) tickles that nerve that says "that's a damn good song" to me. Their guitar work is unrivaled IMO, and I've heard a lot of good guitarists.
</PIMP>

i've thought for a damn long time that certain sounds trigger certain brainwaves that will make you feel a certain fabulous way
The brainwaves thing is a bit of an oversimplification (that's not really what brainwaves indicate), but I think there is something identifiably neurophysiological going on.

There is definitely something neurophysiological going on. If it can affect someone's emotions with nothing but a sound, it has to be.
 
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"I've long thought that music is the purest of the arts,"

i agree, i think its because it manages to move us without words, without reference to anything that the other arts depend on (politics, religion). True, composers often have these agendas (agendi...?lol), but the work would be just as beautiful without knowing the backround.
Similarly, lyrics have little significance in music. They are primarily there to give rhythm - or structure to a work.

"When music affects us to tears, seemingly causeless, we weep not, as Gravina supposes, from "excess of pleasure", but through excess of an impatient, petulant sorrow, that, as mere mortals, we are as yet in no condition to banquet upon those supernal ecstasies of which the music affords us merely a suggestive and indefinite glimpse"

that is a great quote, and an idea which i (and i'm certain everyone) have entertained on many occasions.=D

"I also wonder if peak musical experience is so illusive"

it shoud be elusive, its what makes it special - if you try and get that reaction to the same piece of music too often you will becime deadend to it.

shroom, do you mean what is termed in the west as magyar music?
 
I'm wondering in what capacity my experience has been shaped by my particular history as a listener rather than a musician. I don't see music as meaningful. It doesn't refer to anything. The beauty is in the music in a very direct way. The musician herself is largely irrelevant to me. It's as if the music is its own world.
I've been meaning to reply to this thread for a while, but it seems like everytime I think about what makes music so awesome, I lack the ability to describe it. I guess I'll try anyway :)

Primarily, I think the effect music has on people depends on their own particular preferences (duh). But this is important, because it means that each person's preferences are unique in a way that we can't really describe.

If we can't describe these differences, than how do we explain the fact that some people "just prefer" certain music? We can't wrap our brain around it. I honestly cannot understand how other people could like something for a different reason than myself. I just know that they do.

For me, music's main force resides in its ability to evoke atypical emotional or mental states (often both). It accomplishes this by creating novel combinations and patterns of sound. But there are certain, mechanical and logistical requirements. It must be played precisely, with strict attention to time. Sloppiness is about the worst thing for me musically.

I think music is like a key that can unlock the synesthetic attributes of every human brain. Music will often make me think of landscapes or particular colors....or even certain kinds of weather. For example, the sound of leaves rustling in the wind is almost always a dark and ominous kind of experience for me, and it is directly linked to the sound of the leaves scratching together. Or think of how many songs include references to "rain" or "sunshine."

I also think music is bound up in a continuum of human brain evolution, and certain rhythms and melodies can appeal to certain "pathways" in the brain which have existed for thousands of years. Music is fundamentally traditional - it grows with a particular society and then members of that society evolve brains which are structured to be more and more similar to others who hear the same music.

Basically, music is a medium. Humans shape it to their own personal taste. And when you consider the fact that each individual's unique brain will have its own unique structure as determined by physiological evolution....you might ask, what are the chances that one musician's ideas will be pleasurable to someone who didn't create that music?

Well, humans do share a common ancestor, which means that every human is in some way analogous to every other human. Clearly, a musician is not fundamentally different than a non-musician. They are just a messenger for the musical ideas that are in fact pleasurable to a great many people.

As far as why I am partial to certain music...there is another dimension. Music seems to be particularly good when it contains multiple levels of meaning which are related.

For example, a song might be asthetically dark and depressing in terms of how it sounds (like leaves rustling in the wind). But it may contain a melody which means something different. Maybe the melody is actually "hopefull" or "uplifting," indicating a sort juxtaposition between meanings. I may interpret that to mean something like, "in the face of the despair, we can find some faint glimmer of light in the darkness that can only be discovered from that dark place." And then if their are lyrics, they might support that kind of interpretation. The music gets even better as you add additional layers of meaning that are analogous to the sub-structure of the music. In this example, maybe the lyrics are about someone who lost a lifelong partner only to rediscover himself in another pursuit.

My brain puts that all together, and I'm left with something that is undeniably forceful. I think that our brains are capable of far more experience than we typically encounter. I often find that certain songs can produce emotions that would never even exist outside of that particular experience. But luckily, my brain usually finds a way to interpret the emotion. If not, I'm still left with deciphering the intricacies of the music, which is itself a pleasurable thing. Music doesn't need to hold some important message that can be translated.

But I find that this is the sort of music that I like. Even trivial meaning is still significant. For example, I love to listen to well played latin music, with lots of timbale, conga, etc. The best part is when somebody takes a solo and I get to listen to a musician improvise. Many of my favorite musical passages are from guitar solos, where a certain passage delivers exactly the right impact at the right time. I've often toyed around with the idea that the soul of music lies in improvisation, because it opens up a direct line of communication between the musician and listener. The soloist is free to deliver musical ideas in a way that makes it quite obvious he knows he is being listened to. For example, a timbalero might be whacking away on the timbales, and then go into a really fast roll....only to slow it down at an unexpected moment and shift the interval of the roll towards an odd time multiple (in 3 instead of 4 maybe). What he is doing is momentarily catching your attention and then saying, "Hah, I tricked you. You thought I was going to do ABC but instead I did XYZ." There is no "meaning" per se contained in this sort of thing...because the significance stems from an intentional communication with the listener. You could argue that *all* music is "intentional communication" with the listener. Maybe that is true, but then how do you explain why improvisation is considered to be so important?

For that matter, why does music change when it is played in a group? For me, the reason can be found in what group dynamics mean for music. When three people (bass, drums, guitar) play a certain continuous groove, there is a stable foundation from which ideas can flow. The groove is maintained by adhering to accents, which are the anchor between the differing levels of abstraction. Imagine a 10hz wave passing in front of you. Then imagine a 3hz wave superimposed on it. Of course that will result in dissonance. But with the assistance of a human controller, that 3hz wave can be periodically "corrected" and lined up with the original wave. When a guitar player plays his part over the bass and drums, he may deviate from the groove slightly, but will always return to it eventually (usually quickly).

This is why in music theory, the word "tension" comes up. Tension can be thought of as an acknowledged, temporary deviation from a point of reference in music. Tension is "resolved" when continuity is restored. Since the human brain is accutely aware of these kinds of deviations, we sit up and pay attention when we hear such a movement. When order is restored, we are filled up with this overwhelming sense of accomplishment....a pride in our own ability to "notice." When these strategies are employed by the musician...two minds become one. This is a hallmark of any and all communication...but music arrives at this "oneness" through a particularly effective mix of meaning and aesthetic skill.

There are other things as well, like why lyrics are so important (on multiple levels and for both the musician and listener), and how music even got started in the first place. I'll save that for another post.
 
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