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The nature of subjective experience is unavailable to reason

I think Enki and Nockando are simply (but not exclusively) disccussing the 'Hard Problem Of Consciousness" .

I agree with Enki that science will never give us the whole answer on subjective consciousness, and I'm pretty sure that the scientific community agrees.
 
^ then you're saying a nonphysical mechanism produces subjective consciousness...?

if it's physical but too complex for humans... we do have the capacity to increase our complexity...
 
Yet to hear anything which contradicts my argument. Come on guys!

Subjectivity is: not being a model.

qwe, this isn't about having an insufficiently complex model, or a sufficiently complex model being beyond our current technology or (neuro)biology, it's about the intrinsic nature of a subjective experience being inaccessible to modelling or representation. By definition.
 
the same thing keeps getting said over and over "by its very nature" "by the very definition". That is not an argument. I maintain that some parts of subjective experience are available to reason. When we meet verbally and discuss subjective experiences they seem to be remarkably similar. And some are replicable. Drowsiness is in part a subjective experience but it can be reproduced, studied, compared, and interacted with.

Are you getting at qualia?

Give us some thing specific that you find to be entirely beyond reason please. I am not even clear what you are asserting as you have only said "subjective experience" without even a slight glimmer of what it is you are actually getting at.
 
Have you seen Penrose & Hameroff's quantum theory of conciousness? Looks a bit pseudoscientific to me(I'm a physicist by education myself), but it's probably the first attempt to explain consciousness as a physical phenomenon...

And even though I'm a physicist, I don't believe in a completely materialistic world-view, because in a materialistic world there's no room for moral values...
 
the same thing keeps getting said over and over "by its very nature" "by the very definition". That is not an argument. I maintain that some parts of subjective experience are available to reason. When we meet verbally and discuss subjective experiences they seem to be remarkably similar.

When we discuss anything, we use a shared vocabulary. The words which mean things about our internal states are understood because they are linked to those internal states through the go-between of our external states.

Take the word "happy". This word relates to an internal state. We associate the word with the state not because we can communicate anything of substance about the state itself, but because we can see when people are happy - they smile. When we smile, it means (generally) that we are happy. But the other thing that goes on, the feeling of happiness, is private.

The reason we have seem to have remarkably similar subjective experiences is because we label them with the same words using our external states as an anchor. This idea of communicating subjective state is an illusion caused by language.

And some are replicable. Drowsiness is in part a subjective experience but it can be reproduced, studied, compared, and interacted with.

You can do those things to drowsiness as a neurobiological state but not as a subjective experience of that state.

Are you getting at qualia?

of course I am, that paper itself uses the words "properties of subjective experience".

Give us some thing specific that you find to be entirely beyond reason please. I am not even clear what you are asserting as you have only said "subjective experience" without even a slight glimmer of what it is you are actually getting at.

Of course you know what I'm getting at, you yourself mentioned qualia.
 
You can do those things to drowsiness as a neurobiological state but not as a subjective experience of that state.
but it shows a link... our subjective experience, the "nature of it", lies in physical reality. there are thus physical laws that operate, laws that we could theoretically reach in our intellectual exploration.
 
I haven't read the entire thread, but I guess I'm wondering why exactly we can't model subjective experience just like we model objective reality.

When we model objective reality, we ARE modeling subjective reality, because when we make an observation about objective reality we must observe it through the senses, such as the observation of visual perceptual stimulation by an instrument like a microscope.
 
By its very nature subjective consciousness is outside the bounds of scientific investigation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology

+

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience

=

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuropsychology

Consciousness and subjectivity are inseparable.

Could you explain this in a more detailed summary than five words please? Because if you are indeed suggesting that awareness in the absence of qualia is an impossibility, you're going to have to do a little more work than simply reiterating the proposition.

That aside, the concept of qualia itself has always seemed to me to be little more than an artifact of misleading language rather than a useful philosophic idea. If there is indeed a clearly identifiable component of experience that can be defined as "what it is like to see blueness," is there also a "what it is like to see height?" If we were to continue along the same absurd line of inquest, might there additionally be a meta-quale, e.g.,"what it is like to perceive" or "what it is like to think about qualia?" How about a "what it is like to exist?" Discussing the "redness" of the electromagnetic radiation emitted/reflected by a nearby object is no less ridiculous than appealing to the "thoughtness" of my brain's computations. Latching qualifying suffices (i.e., "-ness") to perceived properties is, I should think, insufficient to establish their independent existence as discreet entities in consciousness (the fact that I could even begin to disagree about this supposedly fundamental aspect of experience in the first place should indicate just how insipid the notion of qualia is). Such brain-deadeningly stupid reifications of common percepts have little place in a discussion pertaining to the metaphysical limitations of scientific inquiry. They stifle understanding and confound the common sense by nebulizing typical distinctions between noun, adjective, and verb as they pertain to the natural world, thereby forcing the thinker into a dilemma from which they would be hard-pressed to emerge unscathed by the linguistic trickery employed.
 
^as far as how people usually use the words, consciousness is qualia, in philosophical discussions. colloquially, consciousness means to be awake.

consciousness (qualia) is, i would say, referring to whatever physical pattern includes subjective experience. that's how they're related.
 
^ same. subjective experience = qualia = consciousness, unless the discussion gets very nuanced.

but i'd say that if you refer to something, you have to also be referring to the corresponding physical energetic pattern that "it is" in " physical reality", unless you're positing something supernatural.
 
consciousness is qualia, in philosophical discussions

Says who? I've heard/read the word used in a wide variety of ways, both in formal contexts (published texts by philosophers, for instance) and otherwise. 'Consciousness' is a stupendously vague term, and is for this reason typically used alongside a certain set of explanatory parameters expounding its immediate usage, but I believe that my post made it pretty clear that I was referring strictly to sentience/awareness per se.

In philosophical discussions, to me, consciousness = subjective experience.

consciousness (qualia) is, i would say, referring to whatever physical pattern includes subjective experience. that's how they're related.

subjective experience

Could you explain to me exactly what this means? I don't know why so many people feel the need to slap superfluous modifiers onto words like 'experience' or 'consciousness,' but the most popular by far seems to be 'subjective.' To revert again to linguistic conundra, what does it mean for a verb to be subjective (or characterized in some way by subjectivity)? I cannot 'subjectively' perceive any more than I can subjectively walk or talk. By what dialectic contrast is this 'subjective' quality of awareness made known? Perhaps there is such a thing as an 'objective' consciousness (whatever that means) that I am simply ill-equipped to intellectually grasp. Is my imagination somehow deficient? Or have I missed the point?

To put my quandary another way - could someone elucidate what an act of 'objective sight' might imply? Were I to consciously ascertain that a nearby object was the color blue, is there some mysterious "objective' way I could have seen the color? Similarly, is there an 'objective taste' of butter? An 'objective smell' of roses? Why can't the ocean just appear to be blue, butter seem to taste like butter, and a rose seem to smell like a rose, all the while being apprehended by my senses thusly? This invocation of a 'subjective consciousness' looks alot like another qualia-esque red herring. If all awareness must, by definition, be 'subjective' in quality, why bother with a redundant modifier? Without a conceivable 'objective consciousness' to uphold the implied distinction, the underlying concept dissolves rather quickly.

My (rather paltry) point in all this being: As I type these words, my visual experience is arising via my nervous system's analogue conversion of the electromagnetic radiation emitted by my computer's monitor and the subsequent changes accordingly evoked throughout the rest of my brain, particularly the neocortex. However, the fact that my brain is capable of reciprocal information processing and internalization/consolidation of past experiences doesn't suddenly endow my current experience with some magical property (subjectivity, or qualia, or whatever; call it what you will) that renders it fundamentally different from any other naturalistically observable phenomenon.
 
Also, since this thread's title and the entire OP are predominately straightforward extensions of the so-called 'Hard Problem of Consciousness,' and since this discussion dances along the fringes of that particular controversy, I'll just go ahead and address the issue directly.

The vast majority of those who attest to the veracity of the HPC seem to rely upon such half-baked, outmoded ideas as qualia to maintain the assertion that there is some special property of human awareness that impenetrably insulates it from any discussion as to a potential direct relationship with biological processes, chiefly those occurring within the central nervous system. Words like 'consciousness' and 'subjectivity,' as mentioned above, are often bandied about in a fashion not amenable to common understanding, and invoking qualia only adds to the confusion.

The relative bulk of justification for the HPC stems from the contention that the hypothesis of an 'experiencing brain' (as opposed to an 'experiencing mind' or 'self,' I guess) is unworkable, unprovable, and/or untenable, due to science's inability to either directly link or reconcile the brain's electrochemical processes with 'subjective' mental ones. I would intone that the same could be said for a 'digesting gastroinstestinal tract.' What we mean when we say "experience," similarly to what we intend when we say "digest," becomes irrelevant when we begin to discuss the complex physical processes thought to underpin these phenomena within the context of scientific discourse. I cannot relate to you at which point in the Krebs cycle 'respiration' has occurred any more readily than I could point to the particular series of chemical reactions that could be didactically described as exclusively 'digestive.' The very same notion applies with equal relevance to 'experience' or 'consciousness.' 'Digestion' and 'consciousness' are just handy terms that we employ to discuss phenomena as they superficially appear to us, as a kind of communicative shorthand. But these conversational tools are not the things in themsleves, and certainly cannot be 'brought about' in the manner so commonly suggested by those who would claim that the seat of consciousness lies somewhere other than just the brain. Digestion of edible foodstuffs is not caused by the chemical interactions between the ingested food and my saliva/stomach/intestines/liver/whatever; and neither indeed is my experience of the color blue 'brought about' by the mechanisms described in the above post.

No scientifically literate individual would claim that human digestion is somehow fundamentally separable from the gastrointestinal tract, yet many find no issue arguing along the very same tack on the topic of consciousness. My intestines do not subjectively absorb nutrients from food ("digest"). Conversely, my sensory organs and nervous system do not subjectively receive input from my surrounding environment. Without a well-integrated record of past events and my comprehension of the word "I," there would be no experience (nor, indeed, an experiencing subject) to discuss. If this is the 'subjective' quality on which everyone seems to be so keen, than I still fail to see where a true Hard Problem might lie.

The way I see it, the illusory Hard Problem of Consciousness is resultant of a magnificent failure to distinguish words and impressions from the things that they broadly attempt to describe or reflect, and, in turn, from scientific findings (and the subsequent models derived therefrom) that have little to no direct conceptual relationship to such discursive abstractions.
 
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To put my quandary another way - could someone elucidate what an act of 'objective sight' might imply? Were I to consciously ascertain that a nearby object was the color blue, is there some mysterious "objective' way I could have seen the color? Similarly, is there an 'objective taste' of butter? An 'objective smell' of roses? Why can't the ocean just appear to be blue, butter seem to taste like butter, and a rose seem to smell like a rose, all the while being apprehended by my senses thusly? This invocation of a 'subjective consciousness' looks alot like another qualia-esque red herring. If all awareness must, by definition, be 'subjective' in quality, why bother with a redundant modifier? Without a conceivable 'objective consciousness' to uphold the implied distinction, the underlying concept dissolves rather quickly.

"Objective sight" is what we can describe when we discuss the mechanism of, for example, a web-cam - the conversion of light waves into an electronic signal which then enters an information processing system. The same description can be used for human "objective sight". There is no implication of a perceptual world of qualia (and I don't agree that word is a red herring, I know what qualia are (or rather I am aware of their existence) because I have subjective experience of them, even if you are a purely mechanistic being and do not).

One objective description of colours is the spectrum of wavelengths which, when sensed (by the "objective sight" system), cause those colours to be experienced. It is unrelated, except through causation, to the subjective experience of colour qualia.

An objective description of taste and smell would describe the spectrum of chemicals detected by the relevant sense organs. Again the relation to the subjective experience is purely causal.

The reason for prefixing the word experience with the "subjective" qualifier is that we can talk about an object experiencing some kind of interference, if I hit the table with a hammer, the table experiences a percussive force. The subjective experience is what it was like for the table, and this is something we have no way of discussing, because we can only discuss through models and a model is, by definition, related to thing under discussion and not the thing itself.

I gave up on this discussion back in March because it seemed impossible to get through to those people who clearly have some kind of mental block to the idea, or are perhaps simply being mischievous and enjoying their word-play. I didn't start the topic in order to fend off what appear to be deliberately ignorant retorts, which is how I subjectively experienced the discussion ;)
 
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Also, since this thread's title and the entire OP are predominately straightforward extensions of the so-called 'Hard Problem of Consciousness,' and since this discussion dances along the fringes of that particular controversy, I'll just go ahead and address the issue directly.

The vast majority of those who attest to the veracity of the HPC seem to rely upon such half-baked, outmoded ideas as qualia to maintain the assertion that there is some special property of human awareness that impenetrably insulates it from any discussion as to a potential direct relationship with biological processes, chiefly those occurring within the central nervous system. Words like 'consciousness' and 'subjectivity,' as mentioned above, are often bandied about in a fashion not amenable to common understanding, and invoking qualia only adds to the confusion.

The relative bulk of justification for the HPC stems from the contention that the hypothesis of an 'experiencing brain' (as opposed to an 'experiencing mind' or 'self,' I guess) is unworkable, unprovable, and/or untenable, due to science's inability to either directly link or reconcile the brain's electrochemical processes with 'subjective' mental ones. I would intone that the same could be said for a 'digesting gastroinstestinal tract.' What we mean when we say "experience," similarly to what we intend when we say "digest," becomes irrelevant when we begin to discuss the complex physical processes thought to underpin these phenomena within the context of scientific discourse. I cannot relate to you at which point in the Krebs cycle 'respiration' has occurred any more readily than I could point to the particular series of chemical reactions that could be didactically described as exclusively 'digestive.' The very same notion applies with equal relevance to 'experience' or 'consciousness.' 'Digestion' and 'consciousness' are just handy terms that we employ to discuss phenomena as they superficially appear to us, as a kind of communicative shorthand. But these conversational tools are not the things in themsleves, and certainly cannot be 'brought about' in the manner so commonly suggested by those who would claim that the seat of consciousness lies somewhere other than just the brain. Digestion of edible foodstuffs is not caused by the chemical interactions between the ingested food and my saliva/stomach/intestines/liver/whatever; and neither indeed is my experience of the color blue 'brought about' by the mechanisms described in the above post.

No scientifically literate individual would claim that human digestion is somehow fundamentally separable from the gastrointestinal tract, yet many find no issue arguing along the very same tack on the topic of consciousness. My intestines do not subjectively absorb nutrients from food ("digest"). Conversely, my sensory organs and nervous system do not subjectively receive input from my surrounding environment. Without a well-integrated record of past events and my comprehension of the word "I," there would be no experience (nor, indeed, an experiencing subject) to discuss. If this is the 'subjective' quality on which everyone seems to be so keen, than I still fail to see where a true Hard Problem might lie.

The way I see it, the illusory Hard Problem of Consciousness is resultant of a magnificent failure to distinguish words and impressions from the things that they broadly attempt to describe or reflect, and, in turn, from scientific findings (and the subsequent models derived therefrom) that have little to no direct conceptual relationship to such discursive abstractions.

I believe that analysis fails. What is being argued is precisely that there is no analogy between digestion, which is a physical phenomenon, and experience or being selfaware. I mean, the idea of qualia might be problematic, but it is easily understood. Digestion is a complex phenomena which denotes, as you said, the breakdown of food and absorbation of vitamins and nutrients. None of this is private. But there seem to be something in experience, mainly the point-of-view of the observer, which is exclusive to any thing external to it. I can't see how the analogy could work unless it is proven that there is no exclusive perspective. But that seems to contradict our first hand experience.
 
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