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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Global Events The Middle East - Palestine, Israel, and Iran

I can see why you’d call it conceited, but I also believe you are deliberately obtuse and would argue against anything and everything if it meant sticking up for the mythical “little man”.

I’m not saying any one or group of governments has the right answers but they damn sure have the responsibility to try and right the wrongs. And at least Israel is trying, even if it is wrong in its reasoning. It is existentialism pure and simple.
what, precisely, is Israel trying?
 
Okay. Tell yourself whatever you like. Deliberately obtuse to the end.
apologies for invoking Godwin’s Law… but it kinda fits like a glove so…
it really doesn’t though. Not in the slightest. You’re not serious in apologizing and that just makes it even worse when you call anyone and anything Nazism.

Enjoy your fallacy.
 
Okay. Tell yourself whatever you like. Deliberately obtuse to the end.

it really doesn’t though. Not in the slightest. You’re not serious in apologizing and that just makes it even worse when you call anyone and anything Nazism.

Enjoy your fallacy.
am I being obtuse? if I listen to Israel's leaders they say they're doing ethnic cleansing and genocide

is that what you think the world needs?

Nazism is not about hating Jewish people, its about ethnic cleansing and creating an ethnostate
 
^you’ve been obtuse in just about every exchange with just about every poster in CE&P for some time now. I just assume it’s some game for you or that you enjoy being difficult.

If not then I have no idea what’s going on in your head man.
 
^you’ve been obtuse in just about every exchange with just about every poster in CE&P for some time now. I just assume it’s some game for you or that you enjoy being difficult.

If not then I have no idea what’s going on in your head man.
I asked you what you though Israel was doing when you said they were trying something in your previous post

instead of answering you just called me obtuse
 

Israel launched an expanded assault on Iran on Sunday, targeting its energy industry and Defense Ministry headquarters, while Tehran unleashed a fresh barrage of deadly strikes.

The simultaneous attacks represented the latest burst of violence since a surprise offensive by Israel two days earlier aimed at decimating Tehran’s rapidly advancing nuclear program.

New explosions boomed across Tehran as Iranian missiles entered Israel’s skies in attacks that Israeli emergency officials said caused deaths around the country, including four in an apartment building in the Galilee region. A strike in central Israel killed an 80-year-old woman, a 69-year-old woman and a 10-year-old boy, officials said.

Casualty figures weren’t immediately available in Iran, where Israel targeted its Defense Ministry headquarters in Tehran as well as sites that it alleged were associated with the country’s nuclear program. Iran’s paramilitary Revolutionary Guard claimed that Iranian missiles targeted fuel production facilities for Israeli fighter jets, something not acknowledged by Israel.

Amid the continued conflict, planned negotiations between Iran and the United States over Tehran’s nuclear program were cancelled, throwing into question when and how an end to the fighting could come.

“Tehran is burning,” Israeli Defense Minister Israel Katz said on social media.

Both Israel’s military and Iran state television announced the latest round of Iranian missiles as explosions were heard near midnight, while the Israeli security cabinet met.

Israel’s ongoing strikes across Iran have left the country’s surviving leadership with the difficult decision of whether to plunge deeper into conflict with Israel’s more powerful forces or seek a diplomatic route.

Urgent calls to deescalate
World leaders made urgent calls to deescalate and avoid all-out war. The attack on nuclear sites set a “dangerous precedent,” China’s foreign minister said. The region is already on edge as Israel makes a new push to eliminate the Iranian-backed militant group Hamas in Gaza after 20 months of fighting.

Israel — widely believed to be the only nuclear-armed state in the Middle East — said its hundreds of strikes on Iran over the past two days have killed a number of top generals, nine senior scientists and experts involved in Iran’s nuclear program. Iran’s U.N. ambassador has said 78 people were killed and more than 320 wounded.

U.S. intelligence agencies and the International Atomic Energy Agency have repeatedly said Iran was not pursuing a nuclear weapon before Israel unleashed its campaign of airstrikes targeting Iran beginning Friday. But Iran’s uranium enrichment has reached near weapons-grade levels, and on Thursday the U.N.’s atomic watchdog censured Iran for not complying with obligations meant to prevent it from developing a nuclear weapon.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who has made the destruction of Iran’s nuclear program his top priority, said Israel’s strikes so far are “nothing compared to what they will feel under the sway of our forces in the coming days.”

In what could be another escalation if confirmed, semiofficial Iranian news agencies reported an Israeli drone struck and caused a “strong explosion” at an Iranian natural-gas processing plant. It would be the first Israeli attack on Iran’s oil and natural gas industry. Israel’s military did not immediately comment.

The extent of damage at the South Pars natural gas field was not immediately clear. Such sites have air defense systems around them, which Israel has been targeting.

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^^ there's more in the article can't be arsed to copy/paste more
 
^you’ve been obtuse in just about every exchange with just about every poster in CE&P for some time now. I just assume it’s some game for you or that you enjoy being difficult.

If not then I have no idea what’s going on in your head man.
I asked you what you though Israel was doing when you said they were trying something in your previous post

instead of answering you just called me obtuse
Try to keep to the topic and not bicker please
 
Things are getting pretty crazy


“We’re looking at better than a ceasefire. We’re not looking for a ceasefire,” Trump said, adding that Macron is a “nice guy but he doesn’t get it right too often.”

^^^ lol @ that

"He also dismissed congressional testimony from National Intelligence Director Tulsi Gabbard, who told lawmakers in March that U.S. spy agencies did not believe Iran was building a nuclear weapon.

“I don’t care what she said,” Trump said. “I think they were very close to having it.”"
_____________

Everything that's happening is so clearly out of the imperialist war playbook. Israel is really trying to rope the USA into a full war, and it's freaky to think of the possible outcomes here.

"They have nuclear weapons!!"

Where have we heard that before? It wasn't true then, and I don't think it's true now.
 
Where have we heard that before? It wasn't true then, and I don't think it's true now.

Even if it is true, that still doesn't necessitate the United States joining Israel in another war in the Middle East. If our allies collectively choose to engage in some kind of unified response, if it ever gets to that point, that's one thing. Otherwise let Israel handle its own business. They haven't really been honest about their military objectives in the recent past so I'm more disinclined to believe them now. This does just feel like a MIC money grab event.
 
Someone noted that president Netanyahu is on trial for corruption charges.

So I suspect an element of self-survival will have been at least partially responsible for the recent attacks on Iran. I don't think anyone needs to point out that the Supreme Leader of Iran is not a reasonable person. Just look at how Iranians are being treated.

But it's not so black-and-white. Iran is the only power in the region that is still fighting ISIL. I'm sure their reasons are self-serving but if regime-change is the goal, who will take power?

Iran is also in the unique position of not even considering 239Pu for nuclear weapons. They have huge amounts of uranium ore as well as large quantities of enriched uranium.

So forgetting the rights and wrongs, I think it key to remember that 235U weapons are far, far simpler to construct than 239Pu weapons. Ted Taylor apparently designed a 19Kg 105mm shell that calculations suggest could have a yield of around 7.8 tonnes of TNT.

So IF the Iranian regime falls, who gets hold of the enriched uranium? Because if Mexican cartels can smuggle in vast amounts of fentanyl, can you stop someone smuggling just the enriched uranium.

The US president said 'we gave them 60 days to sign our deal and they refused' which I suggest can be read as supporting the attacks.

But yesterday president Netanyahu issued a statement that 'All strikes on Iran were carried out in coordination with the USA'. Now I don't know if that's true - but from HIS POV it makes total sense. It benefits his nation. But do US and Israeli goals align?

Because supporting an attack on a nation who hold so much of the key material for nuclear weapons with a view to regime change stikes me as a risky policy. Likely the best option if you KNOW you would be targetted by any nuclear weapons, not the best UNLESS someone has SAID you gave aid to the attack.

So none of us really knows what will happen. But it seems that all of the senior scientists and senior military were hit in a decapitation attack. So whoever replaces them is likely to feel that THEY are now a target and wonder if Iran had already demonstrated a nuclear weapon, would the attacks have taken place. I don't know these people nor their views so who knows the long term outcomes?
 
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BTW those tiny tactical nuclear weapons destory in a TOTALLY different manner to strategic nuclear weapons. Even Operation Sailor Hat used 500 tonnes of TNT so we are talking small. It's the prompt burst of high-energy X-rays and neutrons (which can easily be enhanced with a thin beryllium 'reflector') and possibly the introduction of 6LD (lithium 6 deuteride) which is termed a 'boosted' fission weapon.

I don't think the 105mm shell had a reflector nor was it boosted. But then it was a 19Kg physics package that had to withstand immense acceleration. So if one accepts a slight increase in size, mass and complexity, it might be more comparible to the primaries used on thermonuclear weapons. After all, they are also optimized to produce neutrons and high-energy X-rays.


But the image is of a 150Kt weapon but anyone who has seen a 105mm shell - well, you can go at least that small.

BTW apparently for a full 24 hours Iran seemed incapable or firing on Israel, but I note that experts agree that while Iron Dome is the most advanced anti-ballistic missile system in the world, it's highly susceptable to cost/exchange issues i.e. if you spend $1 million in the destruction of a $50,000 drone, it's costly. Also, any system will eventaully be saturated. Apparently saturation is now occuring.

I think it's one of these things where it looks great on day one but quite quickly turns out to have been a very bad decision. But in essence, both sides NEED a conflict to retain power. So don't look for the 'good guy' because it's civilians who do most of the suffering.
 
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